Facing The Fire: Divorce Strategies With High Conflict Expert Bill Eddy

Our guest is none other than Bill Eddy, a leading expert in managing high-conflict personalities. As the pioneer in understanding and navigating the tumultuous waters of relationships with individuals exhibiting narcissistic or borderline traits, Bill brings a wealth of knowledge and practical wisdom.

In this episode, we'll unravel the intricacies of his acclaimed book, SPLITTING: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Narcissistic or Borderline Personality Disorder. If you're facing a high-conflict divorce, this conversation is an essential guide to maintaining your sanity and safety in the face of adversity.

Bill Eddy, co-founder and Chief Innovation Officer of the High Conflict Institute, is a renowned figure in managing high-conflict personalities. He developed the influential High Conflict Personality Theory and has a rich background as both a Certified Family Law Specialist and a licensed clinical social worker.

Bill’s work extends beyond the courtroom and therapy sessions to the academic realm, serving as faculty at the Straus Institute for Dispute Resolution at Pepperdine University and a Conjoint Associate Professor at the University of Newcastle Law School.

As an author of over 20 books and co-host of the podcast "It's All Your Fault," Bill's expertise is sought after worldwide, having lectured in over 35 U.S. states and 13 countries worldwide. His popular Psychology Today blog has garnered over 6 million views, making him a leading voice in understanding and navigating complex interpersonal conflicts.

More ways to connect with Bill:

• Website: For Individuals - High Conflict Institute
• Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Borderline or Narcissistic Personality Disorder

Journey Beyond Divorce Resources mentioned in this episode:

• Book a Free Rapid Relief Call
• Reclaim Your Mind: Evict Your Spouse from Your Mental Space
• Divorce 101: The Roadmap Your Need to Prepare for Your High Conflict Divorce 

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Listen to the Podcast here

Facing The Fire: Divorce Strategies With High Conflict Expert Bill Eddy

We're discussing facing the fire divorce strategies with high conflict expert Bill Eddy. Our guest is a leading expert in managing high conflict personalities, as the pioneer in understanding and navigating the tumultuous waters of relationships with individuals exhibiting narcissistic and borderline traits. Bill brings a wealth of knowledge and practical wisdom. In this episode, we're going to unravel the intricacies of his acclaimed book, Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Narcissistic or Borderline Personality Disorder.

If you're facing a high conflict divorce, this conversation is an essential guide to maintaining your sanity and safety in the face of adversity. A little bit about Bill before we dive in. Bill Eddy, co-founder and chief innovation officer of the High Conflict Institute, is a renowned figure in managing high conflict personalities. He developed the influential high conflict personality theory and has a rich background as both a certified family law specialist and a licensed clinical social worker.

Bill's work extends beyond the courtroom and therapy sessions to the academic realm, serving as faculty at the Straus Institute for Dispute Resolution and a conjoint associate professor at the University of Newcastle Law School. As an author of over twenty books and co-host of the show, It's All Your Fault. Bill's expertise is sought after worldwide, having lectured in over 35 US States and 13 countries worldwide. His popular Psychology Today blog has garnered over six million views, making him a leading voice in understanding and navigating complex interpersonal conflicts.

Welcome, Bill.

Thanks so much, Karen. Glad to be back.

I am so glad to have you back. I just want to say to the audience, Bill's book on Splitting, and if you could just hold it up for a second. I actually can, I don't have my background.

There you go.

What Is A High-Conflict Divorce

Bill's book on Splitting is so brilliant. It literally takes you through from “I think I have to do this straight through to post-divorce, and I'm still engaged with this individual because I'm co-parenting with them.” We're going to touch on a little bit of the brilliance in this book. It's an absolute must-have guide going through high conflict. Tune in, and then I really hope you purchase it. Thank you again, Bill, for writing the book, for joining me. Offline, we were talking about how high conflict divorce is different. How it's so important. How do you prepare before you let your spouse know that this is a path you've chosen? Let's talk a little bit about why that is and what does that preparation include.

High conflict divorces are different because there's a lot of all-or-nothing thinking and a lot of blame. You really need to prepare for that. A lot of people say, “I cannot believe that my spouse could behave this way towards me now or in court.” It really helps to be prepared. In the Splitting book, we start out with a quick start guide, which gives people some real quick tips about things to do. One is the plan. Think it through before you say, “This doesn't work, I want a divorce,” is to think through how you're going to be prepared if you're getting blamed a lot, if there's a lot of this all-or-nothing thinking.

There are a lot of things that can suddenly go wrong. The more you're prepared for them, the better. I might add, reading a book like Splitting is a really good way to prepare. I've had people say, “Everything you said could go wrong went wrong in my case, but I was prepared. I was able to deal with it and came out okay.” It's anticipating a lot. One is writing. As soon as problems happen, potential conflicts or situations that you might get blamed for is make notes about that. If you can, write them down the same day.

If you're in court someday, saying, “He started pushing me. I started pushing back, and then I said, we've got to separate.” You want to write that down because you may be in court someday, where he says you assaulted him. That's not true. You need to be able to say, “As my notes the same day indicate, this is what he said. This is what I said. This is what he did. This is what I did.” Keeping a record, a journal. Some people worry, “Where can I keep that?”

Some people put it on a thumb drive and erase it on their computer. It's only on the thumb drive. Anyway, that's one thing you can do. Communicate carefully with your potential ex and with the children. We have suggestions in the book, things to say, things not to say. Be aware that going forward, everything you say and do may be scrutinized and used to blame you. That's why you want to keep a clean slate. With the children, protect the children from what's going on.

Just tell them the necessary information. Don't confide in them about how rotten the other person is. That's going to come back to haunt you and to haunt them. Also, be aware of the risk for violence. We have a page here of times of high risk for violence. Many cases have an incident of violence around the time of separation, even if there's no history. You want to be prepared and be cautious. There may be difficult topics to talk about.

You may want to have someone else around when you have those discussions, or meet in a therapist's office to have those discussions. Speaking of that, talk to a therapist before you announce you want to get divorced or separate. Talk to a lawyer, consult with a lawyer. Just get an hour consultation to know what I should expect, what are the next steps, things like that. Build support for yourself. Have a support system.

Educate yourself, read books, and listen to podcasts like Karen's podcast. The more you educate yourself, the calmer you'll be. You'll know, yes, there are hurdles, but you can manage the hurdles and how to manage the hurdles. Anyway, also don't label your partner. Don't say, “He's a narcissist and tell the world that.” That's going to come back to haunt you. He's going to haunt you if you say that. Don't do that. Just be as respectful as you can, problem-solving, focused, and get yourself educated.

The more you educate yourself about the divorce process, the calmer you will be.

One of the big things that's hard in the beginning is, I like to say that our spouse has rented space in our head. It's like his or her thoughts are between your ears, almost more clearly than your own. I love that you're saying to start with the therapist or the coach, and certainly the attorney, because what your spouse is saying may not be factual at all. You're so used to hearing their voice to be going to the experts and hearing facts, and then rooting into those facts is really going to help in those early stages.

I like what you said about you've heard his voice and his story, and that simple story that it's all your fault is really easy to absorb. A complicated story that this is your part, this is his part, this is other people's part, doesn't click quite as quickly. You want to be able to challenge that simple story with accurate information, because it's not true that it's all your fault. I have yet to meet someone whose fault it is completely all their fault.

Planning Prior To The Divorce

The quick start is brilliant, by the way, guys. Even just having those two pages and having that directive to start out with is so immensely helpful, the preparing, because there's so much prep. Again, specific to high conflict because there are so many shenanigans that can go on. We're so often on the defense because of blaming. Let's talk a little bit about once you have the basics down, like what is that planning prior?

There's a variety of things, just gathering information. I encourage people to take pictures of their account statements. You have them in your camera in case your computer gets lost or destroyed or something like that, so that you know what your accounts are. A lot of people don't know what they all are, especially if the other spouse has been managing a lot of the money. I had a case where somebody moved a lot of furniture out of the house. They were kicked out of the house with false allegations.

Be prepared for that. This guy was a husband, and the wife made allegations that he committed domestic violence, went to court, and got a kick-out order. You can go to court with an emergency hearing for a restraining order without the other person even knowing you're doing that because for safety reasons. She did this for safety reasons, had a declaration listing all these incidents of domestic violence, and got him kicked out of the house. He was the vice president of a bank. He was served in front of everybody by the Marshal. It wasn't true.

He was in another state when all her alleged incidents of domestic violence happened. It was a total fabrication. That was towards a man. There's also total fabrication that you're blocking the other parent father, from seeing the kids. All these things may be completely untrue. You need to be prepared. In the case that I mentioned with the husband, the wife also made a lot of furniture disappear. When they valued the household furniture, half the furniture was gone. He had taken pictures before the separation happened of all the furniture in the house.

Account statements, furniture in the house. Have a safety plan, a place to go, and some money. Now, let's say you have a joint bank account and you have $10,000 in it. Now I'm a California lawyer. In California, we're a community property state, and usually that's 50/50. If you're going to take money out of the account, don't take more than 50%. You put it in a new account of your own to get by for a couple of months. If you take the whole account, you're going to be in deep trouble with the court. He's going to go to court and say, “She stole all our money.”

If you take half of it, that's going to be your hip, and keep good records because you're going to have to report that eventually in your financial papers. At least that's the case in California. Be prepared for possible violence. Separation is a higher risk time for violence. Domestic violence happens if the personality and often two of the personalities that most commonly engage in domestic violence. One is men with borderline personality traits.

They have mood swings that include violence. The other is anti-social personality, also more men than women who calculate domestic violence, and they're like planning how they're going to get you. Be prepared for something to happen so you can get out and be safe and have a place to go, friends you can stay with, and women's shelters. There are a lot of them now. You can get information. There's the domestic violence hotline. It's TheHotline.org, and you can get information there. Be prepared for that.

Be prepared for false allegations against you, like I said. Men and women experience that. Build your support system. You have people to go to who aren't going to tell you what to do or are going to listen with empathy and pat you on the back, and give you encouragement. High conflict divorce can be a long haul. I've seen many cases take about two years. If you think you're going to get divorced and be done in three months and it's high conflict, be prepared for the long term so that you can cope and pace yourself.

As my readers know, mine was three and a half years, and CPS got involved four times. There were four allegations against me, and the police came to the front door. Thankfully, I only had to have them come once, and there was an order of protection, and I kept journals, and I think it's so important. I tried to journal everything.

I just had a daily log, and it was maybe it was a good day, but often it was saying exactly what happened because we're so traumatized. We're not going to remember it. We're going to know something happened somewhere in the middle of the summer. I think it was. When you write it down, it's in black and white. Even for your sanity, I would say, “I've gone back and read it.”

Do not unload the adult issues on the kids while undergoing a divorce.

I was like, “That was an arduous path for me.” I think that that documenting and the other thing is in those early days, Bill, before you tell your spouse, if you have access to all of the financials, get copies, take screenshots, download, have statements because the minute you say that you're divorcing, all of that access could go away. It's valuable to plan ahead of time.

I'm sorry you had to go through that, but it sounds like you're able to teach now. You are also an example of having come out the other end, okay. It's always good for people to know.

Right Parenting During A Divorce

There's so much for us to talk about. I'm just curious, what else would you say in those early stages, preparing or the early stages of divorce, when it comes to children, especially if you've got children who are living at home? There's so much chaos and conflict. What are your tips to minimum?

First of all is protect them from your most intense emotions because emotions are contagious and you don't want to be accused of turning your kids against the other parent. Kids sometimes naturally get angry at the other parent if they see you crying about the other parent or screaming about the other parent, which can influence them. I've seen a lot of mothers get accused of parental alienation when they're not really doing that, but the kids are starting to resist the other parent.

Of course, some people do purposefully do that, and they shouldn't. It's going to just create more trouble for you and the children. Protecting them. Now, in the long run, there are four things that we teach parents to do. That is talk about using flexible thinking. Tell kids about using managed emotions. Tell kids about moderate behavior, and just say part of life. I'm using my managed emotions now.

Don't unload the adult issues onto the kids. Don't tell them “I'm looking at our money now and I think that we're going to run out of money in about 45 days and then we'll be homeless. Don't worry about it, kids. I'll try to figure something out.” Don't get them worried about adult stuff. You do that with other adults, and you don't have your partner to discuss finances with, have a friend to discuss finances with, or a financial advisor.

Having a divorce coach can be really helpful in thinking through and talking through the predictable steps with all of this. You asked about the children, and that's the thing is really protect them from a lot of stuff. Also, start teaching them about flexible thinking, managed emotions, and how you're demonstrating that because they're going to learn a lot during this time. That's the stuff you want them to learn.

I will say that children who go through this with at least one healthy parent can emerge with such a high level of emotional intelligence. When the sky is falling and you hold it together and they emerge from that and they're still in like middle school or high school, there's actually an incredible lesson about being able to be resilient and overcome difficulties. I would say my kids are 25 and 27, and I could not be more proud of their emotional development, and they went through hell. They did. It was heartbreaking. I wish they did it. Talk about a silver lineman.

This triggers a thought for me is one of the things that we talk about sometimes is the three most important parenting skills. There was a study done of like 10,000 different parenting skills. Some psychologists did. I read about this about ten years ago. They put together what the most important parenting skills. The top three were a surprise. The first one was obvious. That's unconditional love and affection for your child.

That's obvious, and that's a really good place to start. The second most important, and you got me thinking about this as you were talking, is the ability to manage your own distress. Managing your own distress. There are two benefits for kids with that. One is that you have a parent who's emotionally available. The other is that kids see how you manage your distress and learn skills to manage it themselves. That's the second most important parenting skill.

Who would have thought? They would have thought it had something to do with a time-out or discipline, or homework. Managing your own distress, because they learn from what they see. The third is observing healthy adult communication and conflict resolution. If you cannot do that with your co-parent, do that with friends in front of the kids. Have the kids see how you solve adult problems between adults. Those are the top three parenting skills. It's amazing.

Dealing With A Disordered Parent

I want to ask you a nuance of the other topic you were talking about, which is not the adult stuff on the kids. I think so often we may be faced with the other parent, the disordered parent, who is talking about money, time, the bad things that are going to happen to me if you talk to the CPS person, or whatever it is. How do you encourage the readers to respond when the child comes to you with a ton of information they really should never have had? They don't want you to say, “I'm not responding. That's adult stuff.” What is the healthy response in those situations?

If children can learn to manage their emotions in the face of someone else being upset, that is a real skill to have in the modern world.

A healthy response is to say, “Johnny, we shouldn't be talking about this adult stuff with you. Neither of us should be doing that. I'm going to do my best not to involve you with this. I hope your father will, too, but people make mistakes.” There's that “You shouldn't have to worry about this. You're nine years old.

You should worry about being a nine-year-old and what you're going to do tomorrow with your friends. We don't want you worrying about this stuff. If that starts coming your way, just remember, I'm nine years old. I don't have to worry about this stuff.” That's also why we teach those four big skills. The flexible thinking, managed emotion, moderate behavior, and checking yourself, because that's how you can help the child comprehend what the other parent's doing.

In other words, the other parent was screaming over the weekend, and you say, “Managed emotions is something we're going to try to practice because that's what really works best.” Some people cannot manage their emotions well, but we're going to try to do that. That way, you're not criticizing the other parent, but you're helping the child develop some ego strength for coping with situations and giving them an alternative view. You're not supposed to say, “Dad's doing it wrong, he's a jerk.” You can say, “Managed emotions are a good thing, and that's what we're going to try to do.”

I love that. I think that it's so important to be able to use all of these challenges to teach our children without making it about the other parent. Just make it about the lesson, is what I hear you saying.

Yes. We call these the four big skills for life because they'll really help the kids forever. If they can learn to manage their emotions in the face of someone else being upset, that's a real skill to have in the modern world, and flexible thinking. Kids are going to grow up and be exposed to stuff we never dreamed of before. Who thought of AI as a thing? Now we have to figure out what do we do with that? We have to use our flexible thinking.

How To Succeed In Court

Let's touch on succeeding in court, which is the next section.

There are several things to think of. That's one thing. The largest part of the book is really how to handle a high conflict court case with someone who may have a personality disorder or at least a high conflict personality, where they blame a lot. One thing is finding an attorney that you can work with. A lot of people ask me, “Do I have a list of lawyers who understand personality disorders like I do?” “No, I don't have a list of lawyers like that.”

Interview 2 or 3 lawyers, and mostly see who you connect with. If you connect well with the lawyer, you can probably tell the lawyer about some things the lawyer may not be familiar with. Also, give the lawyer a lot of respect because lawyers like to be respected, and that gives them motivation to feel like you're working with them, not against them. You could give them the Splitting book. There's a chapter in there on working with your lawyer and how to provide information and listen to your lawyer's advice.

Working with a lawyer is good, and that's talked about in there. Knowing what to expect in court, like how do judges think? Now, judges, there's a wide range of judges. Some judges know family law and practice family law before becoming a judge. Some judges have no experience with family law, and they've just been appointed to be a judge for the first time, and they're put in family court. They're really grappling, and your lawyer can really educate the judge about what the situation is.

You can educate your lawyer about your situation. One thing I encourage to help your lawyer get ready for court is to write a two-page summary of your case with the biggest concerns. Think in terms of three or four categories, and you can put headings on this two-page paper that says, let's say your mom and you say, “Father's uncontrollable anger.” That's a heading, and that's going to get attention. You've got the three worst examples of this. “He was ripping the shirt off our ten-year-old son. He was so angry on April 17th, 23.”

Something like that. It's not in chronological order, it's in the order of importance. You get the top three, the worst situation, the second, and the third worst. The next category might be undermining the mother's relationship with children. You give the worst examples of that, bad mouthing, conflicting events, whatever it is. Another might be false statements to professionals. You get professionals who have been told stories that aren't true. You cannot just say that's not true. You want to explain, given this and this, the top three worst examples of that.

In a two-page summary, this helps focus the lawyer's attention so the lawyer can focus the judge's attention. I found it really effective when you have headings like this, phrases like this, you talk like that, the lawyer talks like that, and then the judge starts saying, “Isn't this the case of undermining the mother's relationship with the children?” You realize they get it. You have to keep it simple, some mildly emotional words like undermining the mother's relationship, and repetition. You have to use that phrase a few times.

When undergoing a divorce, help your lawyer by writing a two-page summary of your case containing all of your biggest concerns.

This is another example of undermining a mother's relationship with the children or physically abusing maybe if they've been hitting the children or breaking things in front of the children. This summary helps you help your lawyer, helps the lawyer help the court understand, it focuses attention. Understanding evaluators, the same thing. If you have a custody evaluation and a lot of the high conflict cases end up needing that, think of the evaluator as someone that you want to be helpful towards.

One of the worst things in high conflict cases is that people are frustrated, angry, things aren't going well, and they get angry at the evaluator. They say, “I don't trust any of the professionals in this case, and I hope you figure it out, but I don't know if I trust you either. You have to know.” The next thing you know, you've alienated the evaluator. Now high conflict people often start with a sugar coating.

They've smoothed the evaluator says, “I get it. understand your job, but my wife, she's just crazy. You'll figure that out, but I'm here to help you. Let me know just anything I can do to be helpful to you.” You find out that the person who seems reasonable to the evaluator is an abusive person. The person who's frustrated and venting is the victim of that. You want to be a reasonable person who's not invested in bad mouthing, but just saying, “I have these concerns about the other parent,” rather than the other parent, the worst person in the world.

Evaluators are important, and that two-page summary is something you might do for the evaluator as well. Let’s say, you can say my biggest concerns are when there's category one, category two, three, maybe there's a fourth with the biggest examples. That brings it into focus. The documents for the court are introduced in the first paragraph or two.

Let's say you have a ten-page affidavit or declaration or something. A lot of people go chronologically. “This happened and then this happened.” There's a really big thing on page 6 out of 10 pages. Right around page six is when the judge's attention starts wandering. They start thinking about what they're going to have for lunch. That was when the biggest thing was. You want to say that in the first couple of paragraphs.

Two of the biggest concerns are “Such and such as I will describe below.” That way, you get their attention. We actually have, I should mention, with High Conflict Institute, we have a variety of webinars, like one-hour recorded webinars. One of them is writing for the court and talks about some of this, that category heading approach.

That's so helpful. I think that because there are often so many grievances. I love that you're saying like three examples, because you actually look worse when you come with 25 pages, and then “He delivered the clothing back unwashed.” It's like, annoying, but high-key points are essential.

Things that grab the judge's attention. Now you have the attention, the rest of it will reinforce that. If you bore the judge before you have the most important stuff, it just becomes another boring case.

Professionals To Hire For A Divorce

When we talk about the parties that the professionals that are maybe part of somebody's support team, the custody evaluator is one. Can you talk a little bit about an attorney for the children and when and if that's needed?

In California, we call it the Minors' Council. Sometimes it's a guardian ad litem, sometimes an attorney for the child. Generally, the court appoints that. Generally, what's helpful is if it's a complicated case, and especially an older child, they get twelve or above, has their own opinions, and the parents are fighting over custody, then the court may order having that. People who do that have been trained and generally can really understand the case more than a judge because they can get into the case more, really talk to the child, and understand the situation.

They may be the determining person. Let me just back up. A custody evaluator may be the determining person in a case. Judges generally, I'd say 90% of the time, follow what custody evaluators recommend. They may tinker with it a little bit, may say, “Look, we're going to start the access or visitation on Saturday morning instead of Friday night, but otherwise I'm adopting the recommendation.” Something like that. They might tinker. Minors' Council, likewise, they pays a lot of attention to what Minors' Council says or an attorney for the child.

If it's hard sorting out and you're concerned the child's not getting understood or heard, that's something you can ask for. Let me just mention that there are two conflicting approaches for an attorney for the child. One is to represent the child and basically say what the child wants, what the child thinks. The other is to think about the best interests of the child, because sometimes what the child wants is not in their best interest. Say the child's become alienated and they're bonded to one parent, mom or dad, against the other parent. They want nothing to do with the other parent. That's because of bad mouthing.

Boring is the biggest thing you can do with high-conflict people. Be so routine that they do not get excited about coming back after you.

Now, sometimes they want nothing to do with the other parent, because that parent's been abusive, and that has to get figured out too. Let's say the child wants to have no contact with one of their parents ever again. That's not usually a good solution. You need to do some problem-solving. Maybe a parent needs some parent training, but Minor’s Council, in the best interest of the child, may say, “A child needs to have a relationship with both parents, even though the child saying, I don't want that.”

We had both of those. Both the custody evaluator and my children were very young. They were in the early years of grade school, which is so upsetting for a parent, too, that you're dragging your kids to all these professionals. I remember we called the custody evaluator was the cool court guy. We're going to see the cool court guy. Everything was about making it somewhat normal, somewhat fun, because they're very good with children.

It's not that mine were anyway. There was this opportunity for the children to be able to go in there without being so anxious and to understand that they were being asked to tell stories, and this was a good thing for them to do so that they could live a really more peaceful life than they were living. I think there are a lot of ways that parents can soften and prep the children for those events as well.

Don't over-prepare them by telling them what to say “Now you tell Minor’s Council what you told me yesterday about your father being a jerk.” Just say, “You're going to meet with this person and see what happens. They may have some questions,” but don't suggest in any way because coaching a child gets parents into a lot of trouble. Just be encouraging, but not specific.

Getting A Lawyer And Post-Divorce Phase

I know we could cover so much more. Can you just give us a quick glimpse at the balance of the book, and then we'll just tell them where they can find it.

The section we've just been talking about, preparing for court, it'd be really good to read that, so what to expect and you're not caught by surprise. If the other lawyer says horrible things about you in court that aren't true is just sit there with a pleasant face if you can and have your lawyer write. Maybe write some notes and hand them to your lawyer. “That's not true. That part is true,” but have your lawyer do their part. I also want to say I think important to have a lawyer in a high conflict case.

More and more parents are representing themselves, even in custody disputes. If it's a high conflict case, and especially a lawyer on the other side, you really want to have your own lawyer, bite the bullet, and invest in that. The last part of the book is the post-divorce. What happens after the divorce? In high conflict cases, often the divorce itself is just a speed bump in the road of high conflict. Be prepared for new things to come up.

For example, don't burn your court file. I once consulted with a guy who said, “Who knew a year later I wish I had those records?” Don't burn your court file. Put it in a safe place. Don't look at it every week, but don't throw it away, don't get rid of it. Some of the worst custody disputes happen after the divorce is over. It's often because a high conflict person is stumbling in their ongoing life and coming back, figuring, “I'm going to get control of the child, that'll make my life happier. I'm going to get more child support by getting more time or less time or whatever it is.”

Be prepared, things will happen. That's why you still want to keep a journal. If weird things happen, weird things are said, there's an incident, a confrontation, write down the same day, if possible, what happened, because you could end up in court. Now out of court, just maintain a balanced relationship. I'm assuming there are kids, and so you're going to have to deal with that person. Keep this in mind. Don't be too rejecting or don't be too close. Some people figure, “Now we can be good buddies again,” but still have some distance.

If you get along as good buddies, that's wonderful, but still have some caution. Don't just try to eliminate the person from your life and never talk to them. A lot of people say that's a good thing, but if you share kids, you're going to have to deal with them. Don't put out a rejecting message. Just be matter-of-fact and boring. Boring is the biggest thing you can do with high conflict people because they're looking for excitement. Just be so routine that they don't get excited about coming back after you.

Episode Wrap-up And Closing Words

I love that last piece of advice. Be boring. It keeps you safe. Thank you so much. Bill Eddy's book, Splitting. We're going to have a link in the show notes so that you can grab your copy of it. It is just a must-have from beginning to end and post-end, all of the good advice. I mean, the best advice that's out there really. Bill, thank you so much for joining us, for sharing your wisdom, and all of your tips.

Thank you. I'm glad to be on and appreciate the work you're doing. Best wishes with your show and with all your readers. Best wishes.

Thank you so much. We'll be back again with another episode real soon. You guys take care.

Important Links

• Bill Eddy
• Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing Someone with Narcissistic or Borderline Personality Disorder
• High Conflict Institute
• It's All Your Fault
• Psychology Today
• National Domestic Violence Hotline
• Book a Free Rapid Relief Call
• Reclaim Your Mind Mini Course
• Divorce 101: The Roadmap You Need to Prepare for Your High Conflict Divorce

About Bill Eddy

Bill Eddy, LCSW, Esq. is the co-founder and Chief Innovation Officer of the High Conflict Institute in San Diego, California. He pioneered the High Conflict Personality Theory (HCP) and has become an expert on managing disputes involving people with high conflict personalities. He was the Senior Family Mediator at the National Conflict Resolution Center for 15 years, a Certified Family Law Specialist lawyer representing clients in family court for 15 years, and a licensed clinical social worker therapist with twelve years’ experience.

He serves on the faculty of the Straus Institute for Dispute Resolution at the Pepperdine University School of Law in California and is a Conjoint Associate Professor with the University of Newcastle Law School in Australia. He has been a speaker and trainer in over 30 U.S. states and 10 countries.

He is the author or co-author of twenty books, including two award-winners, and has a popular blog on the Psychology Today website with over 4.0 million views.