High Conflict DD: Child Advocacy: The Guardian Ad Litem Journey With Your Kids With Elle Barr

In the turbulent seas of high-conflict custody battles and family disputes, a Guardian ad Litem (GAL) serves as a lighthouse, guiding decisions in the best interest of the children involved. It’s crucial to understand when a GAL is needed, and what their role is.  

This podcast delves into the circumstances that necessitate the involvement of a GAL, unraveling their purpose and shedding light on their pivotal role. Our journey begins with an exploration of the situations that trigger the appointment of a GAL, understanding their objectives, and the critical part they play in steering court decisions towards the welfare and best interests of the children.

Engaging with a Guardian ad Litem can be a perplexing maze for both parents and children. As we navigate this complex path, our podcast aims to empower you with the knowledge and tools necessary to support your children compassionately and effectively through this process. We will explore strategies for fostering open communication, maintaining a stable and supportive environment, and preparing your child for interactions with the GAL. By demystifying the GAL's role and functions, we provide parents with actionable insights to facilitate a smoother experience for their children, ensuring their voices are heard and their well-being is prioritized throughout the legal process.

Elle Barr is an experienced family law attorney with a deep commitment to serving children and families. She has experience representing clients in all family law matters, with an emphasis on serving as a court appointed GAL.

More ways to connect with Elle:

• LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/elle-barr-252b14104
• Instagram: instagram.com/elle.barr.gal
• Twitter: twitter.com/ElleBarrGAL
• Enroll with Our Family Wizard: 30 day free OFW trial

GAL Resources Referenced in Episode:

• ACE's Resource: cdc.gov/violenceprevention/aces/index.html
• Nadine Burke Ted Talk
• ACE's Aware: acesaware.org
•  Children's Bill of Rights: emeryondivorce.com/childrens_bill_of_rights_in_divorce.php

Journey Beyond Divorce Resources mentioned in this episode:

• Book a Free Rapid Relief Call: http://rapidreliefcall.com
• Soberlink: www.soberlink.com/jbd 

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Listen to the Podcast here

High Conflict DD: Child Advocacy: The Guardian Ad Litem Journey With Your Kids With Elle Barr

Welcome back to another episode of High Conflict Divorce Demystified. We're talking about child advocacy, the guardian ad litem journey with your kids. With me is Attorney Elle Barr. In the turbulences of high-conflict custody battles and family disputes, a guardian ad litem or GAL, as I'll refer to it, is an attorney for the child and serves as a lighthouse, guiding decisions in the best interest of the children involved. It's crucial to understand when a GAL is needed, what their role is, and the limits and extent of their relationship with the parents.

This show delves into the circumstances that necessitate the involvement of a GAL, unraveling their purpose and shedding light on their pivotal role. We explore the situations that trigger the appointment of a GAL, their objectives, and the critical role that they play in steering the court decisions toward the welfare and best interests of your children. Engaging with a guardian ad litem can be a perplexing maze for both the parents and the children.

As we navigate this complex path, our show aims to empower you with the knowledge and tools necessary to support your children compassionately and effectively through this process. We'll explore strategies for fostering open communication, maintaining a stable and supportive environment, and preparing your children for interactions with the GAL. By demystifying the GAL's role and functions, we aim to provide parents with actionable insights to facilitate a smoother experience for their children, ensuring that their voices are heard and that their well-being is prioritized throughout the legal process. With me is Elle Barr. She's an experienced family law attorney with a deep commitment to serving children and families.

Elle has experience representing clients in all family law matters with an emphasis on serving as a court-appointed guardian ad litem. She's also an ambassador to OurFamilyWizard, which is an online shared parenting platform that is especially designed for high-conflict situations. With no further ado, welcome, Elle.

Thank you for the very kind intro. I'm thrilled to be here.

Why Become A Child Advocate? Elle's Journey Into Family Law

There's so much confusion around the role of an attorney for the children, a GAL, a guardian ad litem, especially what the boundaries are with the parents, and if there are different age children, how it works. First of all, I'm so curious how you got into this particular angle of law. Let's start there.

I decided that I wanted to go into family law during my second year of law school. I had changed my mind a few times during my first year of law school. During my second year, I took a family law course. I also participated in two pro bono clinics. I participated in the domestic violence pro bono clinic and the child advocacy clinic. There was something special about family law. I was drawn to it. I loved my family law class. It felt right. It felt like home.

After law school, I clerked for a family division judge, and then I worked in the public sector for a bit. Finally, I made my way to the Office of Law Guardian, where I started representing children in dependency matters. Those are cases where there's abuse and neglect, and a court-appointed attorney represents those children who were abused and neglected. From there, I got into divorce and separation and was appointed to children who were impacted by a high-conflict divorce situation. That's how I became a GAL. That's a little bit about my background. It's a humbling role. I love serving as a GAL. At the same time, I also love working for OurFamilyWizard.

How GALs Are Appointed, Not Hired: Understanding The Legal Process

Let's start at the beginning. The first thing I'm hearing is the word appointed. Is it true that the only way that one hires a GAL is if they're appointed, or can a family choose that they need one? Does that vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction?

A GAL is court-appointed. In each state, there are statutes and case law that outline and define the role of the GAL, the appointment of the GAL. GALs are not hired. Parents don't go out, call up the attorney, and ask if they can retain you as the GAL. That's not how it works. I'll first start with a guardian ad litem, GAL. Litem is a Latin word. Litem means lawsuit. Guardian, ad is for, and litem is lawsuit.

A guardian ad litem is either requested by the parties in court. The attorneys for the parents can petition and request that a GAL be appointed or sua sponte, meaning the judge, on his or her own, will appoint a guardian ad litem to the case when there are significant disagreements between the parents as to what is in the best interest of the child or the children. Essentially, the guardian ad litem is this trusted third-party outside opinion. The guardian ad litem serves as the eyes and the ears of the court.

The guardian ad litem serves as the eyes and the ears of the court.

This eluded me in the past. Even if both parties want a guardian ad litem, the judge is still the one who appoints a particular individual.

Correct. In my county, for example, there's a roster. The attorneys can take the roster and the attorneys together, or if the parents are pro se, they could look at the roster and they could pull the attorney and make the request to the court. Guardian ad litem is a court-appointed attorney. We're not privately retained. I know parents have reached out to me asking, “Can I retain you? Can I do a consultation?” I'll say to them, “I appreciate the call. Thank you so much,” or, “Thank you for your email. I am court-appointed. I serve the court. I am an arm of the court. If the judge feels it's appropriate for your case to have a guardian ad litem, perhaps I could be appointed through the court.” There are no privately retained guardian ad litems.

When Does A Judge Appoint A GAL? Triggers And Red Flags

That's the first thing for all of us to understand. What are the types of circumstances that would have the judge appoint a guardian ad litem?

There are a lot of circumstances that would raise red flags and have the judge then, on their own, appoint a guardian ad litem. The first is when there are significant disagreements and conflicts, when there's a high-conflict case, and let's say there's substance abuse, mental health issues, or domestic violence. The judge, right away, is going to say, “This case needs a guardian ad litem.” Most often, we work hand in hand when there's a guardian ad litem appointed.

Oftentimes, there is an order requiring that the parties submit and complete forensic evaluations. The judge is going to use the guardian ad litem's report recommendations alongside the mental health professional's recommendation. That allows the court to make that best interest determination with respect to the children, and with respect to custody and visitation.

Custody Evaluations & GALs: Working Together for Child Wellbeing

Can you tell our audience what a custody evaluation is in a nutshell?

A custody evaluation is a court-ordered evaluation where the parties go and meet with a mental health professional. Generally, they have a roster as well, and the judge chooses which mental health professional is going to conduct the evaluation. They dig into the circumstances of the matter. They meet with the parties, the children, and then they give a recommendation based on all of their testing, their assessments, and their observations as to what is best for the children, what custody arrangement would be best.

Is it typical for the guardian ad litem and the forensic to have a close working relationship?

Very close. In my recommendations, oftentimes, I will wait until I have that forensic evaluation because I'm going to include that. When I’m doing my investigative work, I draft very thorough and comprehensive reports with recommendations to the court. If there is a forensic evaluation going on at the same time that I'm doing my investigative work, I am going to hold. I'm going to hit pause on submitting my report and recommendations until I review that report thoroughly.

I see the results of the testing, the assessments, and the observations. I will include in my report that I've relied upon that, in addition to the investigative work that I've conducted, because my work goes beyond the parents. I talk to teachers, relatives, and neighbors. If they each have a treating therapist, if the child has a therapist, and if they have a family therapist, I talk to everyone and anyone under the sun who is connected and related to this family, who could give me information about the child and their relationship with each parent.

Real Cases: Representing Kids from Toddlers to Teens in Divorce

Could you share 1 or 2 stories with us? As we were talking offline, I would imagine you could be representing children who can't even articulate what’s best for themselves because they're so young. You could be representing a twelve-year-old who wants what they want, and that's the kid angle. There are hundreds of different scenarios between the parents. Is there 1 or 2 short stories you could share that would give a flavor to our audience?

Without mentioning any confidential information, names, or locations, I'm happy to share some stories to highlight what it's like representing children of different ages, the issues, the facts, and circumstances that I dig into. I've been doing this for a very long time. I've been practicing law for twenty years. When I was at the Office of Law Guardian, I represented thousands of abused and neglected children.

Over the years, I've represented hundreds of children in high-conflict divorce cases. I've seen it all from a few months old until eighteen years old. Emotions are high in family court. Judges are making decisions about what is most important to parents, their children, and their money. These decisions are complex and multifaceted. To share 1 or 2 stories, I represented a teenage girl. This was during the pandemic. It was difficult to conduct the interviews because no one was going out. No one wanted to meet with me.

I couldn't go to the houses to see her. The family had been in litigation since 2006. That's when the litigation started, and I didn't get appointed until 2020. Fast forward fourteen years, and she's a sixteen-year-old girl. I'm coming in because a petition for modification was filed with respect to custody. The judge wanted to know whether this teenager had a well-reasoned preference. If she does, what is that preference? What's going on in her relationship with Mom? What's going on at school? What's going on with Dad, with her stepmom, with her grandparents?

I got pulled in. This is one of the most challenging cases I've had because the pandemic had started. I didn't know how I was going to investigate. How am I going to look into the facts, the circumstances, and all the issues that are relevant to this matter? No one will let me into their home. No one will talk to me. I was able to conduct everything through Zoom with the parents.

Generally, when I meet with the children, I'll meet with them at Mom's house, at Dad's house. If it's a same-sex couple, I'll meet with them at Dad A's house, Dad B's house. I see them in their environment. I did that during the pandemic. I did the same thing over Zoom. I met with her when she was at Mom's house. I met with her when she was at Dad's house. I met with the teachers. There were a few different teachers that I met with. I met with the school guidance counselor. She had a health issue, so I had to talk to the pediatrician. There was an issue with her weight. There were concerns about a possible eating disorder. I talked to her mental health pro, who was working one-on-one with her.

We set up another therapist who was working on rebuilding and repairing the relationship with, I don't want to say which parent, because I don't want to reveal too much information. There was a break in the relationship, so I connected with that therapist. In the end, after pulling all of this information, all of the facts, and taking into consideration this teenage girl, her emotional, her physical well-being, the family dynamics, her educational needs, her medical and health needs, we didn't have a forensic evaluator. She's a sixteen-year-old girl. This case had been in litigation on and off since 2006.

I drafted my report. I'm not kidding you. I think it was a 408-page report, if I remember correctly. It was very comprehensive. The majority of it, maybe 36 pages, was the report with the recommendation, and the rest were exhibits that were attached. All the OurFamilyWizard communications over the past fourteen years were attached as an exhibit. The report truly outlined what is in the best interest of this child, and it provided recommendations with respect to custody and visitation. The court essentially rubber-stamped that report and those recommendations.

She’s now eighteen years old. I'm still in touch with her. I'm in touch with the majority of my clients, the ones that I work with on this type of level, where it's a day-to-day for a year or two years. She's doing well. She has repaired, she has rebuilt her relationship with the parent where it was broken and strained, and she's still with the parent, living full-time with the other parent who had filed that petition for modification. She's doing well. That's an example of when a guardian ad litem comes in, and they investigate what is actually happening and draft that report. The parents read it. They see what their child wants. They see what all the issues are. It gives them some self-awareness.

Ultimately, at the end, what happens, not every case, but in this case, the parents settled. They didn't even go before the judge. The judge, essentially, put all my recommendations in, and that's what got rubber-stamped, the consent order, the exact recommendations with respect to physical and legal custody, and then all the services that were recommended for the child and the family.

That's an amazing story. I have a client who wrapped up after 8 or 9 years, but this girl, since she was 2 years old, it's heartbreaking. What a powerful example of what a guardian ad litem can do to help smooth things out. Can you give us an example of maybe a rather young child?

I've been appointed for little ones when it's a very high-conflict situation. With little ones, they don't have a well-reasoned preference. Under the age of 7 or 8, it's hard to put a thorough, backed-up position for the child. A lot of times, the children don't even know what's going on. They don't understand the situation. For the little ones, I'm substituting judgment. I'm putting what's in the best interest based on my investigative work, based on the situation, if there's been domestic violence, if there's alcohol abuse, if there's mental health issues. I'm also going through our best interest statute.

This is something that's important. Every single state has a best interest statute. That statute is going to outline factors that need to be considered when a best interest determination is made with respect to custody. In Pennsylvania, where I practice, our best interest statute has sixteen factors. I'm going through those sixteen factors when I draft my report. I'm keeping them in the back of my mind as I'm doing my investigative work.

For example, one of those sixteen factors is which party is more likely to encourage and permit frequent and continuing contact between the child and the other party. It's essentially asking who's the more cooperative parent, who's more flexible. Another factor is the presence of past abuse committed by a parent or party. Has there been physical abuse or emotional abuse? They want to take that into consideration. They take into consideration the extended family and the child's sibling relationships. Does one of the parents have a child from a former relationship? How connected is that child to the step-sibling? One of the very important factors in Pennsylvania is which party is more likely to maintain a loving, stable, consistent, and nurturing relationship with the child to meet the child's needs.

That's all of the needs: emotional, physical, and mental needs. That one is important. It goes on and on. We have those sixteen factors. Those are all things that I'm considering when I'm drafting my report, when I'm making my recommendation. That's what the judge is going to rely upon when making a determination and entering an order.

GAL Relationship With Parents: Facts, Not Feelings, And No Secrets

I know that the younger the child, the more heartbroken the parent is when they think that they're not going to have time with them. Can we pivot to a little bit more about what is your relationship and interaction with the parents?

I'm team family. I'm team child. My relationship with the parents is essentially to schedule interviews, to learn about their situation, to understand their positions, and to set up meetings with the child and with any other family member, friend, or third party that they think is important for me to connect with. I have no responsibility to the parents. My role and my responsibility are to the child and to report back to the court.

Parents often think, “Here's this girl here. I'm going to win her over,” but that's not how it works. I'm there to gather facts and information. I appreciate it when a parent has all the medical records right there, has all the educational records, and turns them right over to me, so I don't have to go do my digging for hours and less collateral. That's very helpful. In the relationship between the guardian ad litem and the parent, there is no attorney-client privilege. There is no relationship. I put that in my introduction letter.

I write to the parents to let them know that there is no attorney-client privilege. I will be copying their attorney on every email correspondence. I want there to be full transparency. Anything they say to me is not a secret. It is not confidential. That will be included in my report with my recommendations. It's important for parents to keep that in mind.

The other thing I heard you say, in case it slipped past our audience, is you're here to collect facts, not opinions. That's a big difference, right?

Yes, and parents can share anything they want. I don't limit them in what they say. I keep it casual and make it a conversation because I want to hear their position, their understanding of the situation, and their perspective. Essentially, I'm looking for the facts. If Dad feels this way or Mom thinks this, those aren't facts. Feelings are not factual information. They don't tell me what grade the child is in, what school he or she goes to, what the medical issues are, or what the concerns are. They're not going to help me go through those sixteen factors.

Feelings are not factual information.

If there has been drug or alcohol abuse, tell me about that. Has someone been inpatient? What kind of treatment did they receive? When were they discharged? What were the discharge instructions? Telling me, “This one is a drunk. This one drinks all day, and I always see this one with alcohol here,” those aren't facts. Give me the facts. Is there a problem with alcohol? Are you using Soberlink? Was that court-ordered? Tell me about it. Put me in the know.

That's very helpful. Our audience needs to understand the earlier conversation about the relationship between the evaluator and the guardian ad litem and the relationship between them and the guardian ad litem. I'd love to talk a little bit about what you've noticed in terms of the stress and burden that your clients, the children, have experienced when their parents are going through years of a high-conflict divorce.

It is a tremendous, toxic stress that these children feel when their parents are going through a high-conflict divorce. That is considered an ACE, an Adverse Childhood Experience. For those who aren't familiar with the study, back in the '90s, the CDC and Kaiser conducted an important public health research study, and they took a deep dive into exposure to trauma during childhood, how that impacts adults, and how their exposure during childhood affects them later in life.

There are ten ACEs. There is abuse, neglect, and household challenges. Those are the three broad categories. Under abuse, there are physical, emotional, and sexual. Under neglect, there are physical and emotional. Under household dysfunction or challenges, there is mental illness, incarceration of a parent, witnessing domestic violence, substance abuse by a parent, and finally, parental separation or divorce. Divorce or parental separation is not per se an adverse childhood experience. The trauma is the unmanaged conflict and the inability of the parents to identify, address, and meet the needs of their children. That's what becomes an adverse childhood experience.

Divorce or parental separation is not inherently a negative childhood experience. The real trauma stems from unresolved conflict and the parents' failure to recognize and address their children's needs.

That becomes this toxic stress on children. It impacts their brains and their bodies. It makes their brains and bodies change. People don't realize this. What ends up happening is that their prefrontal cortex, their pleasure reward center, and their fear response center are all impacted by a high-conflict divorce. It's mind-boggling. I would encourage all of your audience to pull that study, to read it, to link it in the show notes, because children exposed to a high-conflict divorce are going to experience constant activation of their stress response system.

It's particularly harmful during these sensitive periods of brain development and body growth. As I said, their little brains and their bodies start to change from all this persistent fear and anxiety and the stress. It hurts them immediately and long-term. Immediately, it's going to hurt them in their ability to learn, to regulate their emotions, and to engage with their peers. Ultimately, it's going to lead to lifelong physical and psychological consequences.

What is the name of the study again?

It's called the ACEs study. ACEs is an acronym for Adverse Childhood Experiences.

Practical Co-Parenting Advice: Dos, Don'ts, And Dr. Emery's Rights

I will have that link for you, folks. I didn't know about that. That is well worth investing some time and understanding. There are so many things we can do. What we do at Journey Beyond is try to help our clients learn emotional regulation and better communication skills, all to tamp down what's been going on during the marriage. I appreciate you bringing up that point. Can we talk about some dos and don'ts? You've got the ear of at least one of the parents as you're speaking. Let's assume that their situation is going to call for a guardian ad litem and more likely than not, a custody evaluation. What would be your high-level dos and don'ts for the parents tuning in?

I'd love to start with dos because the dos are easy. If you want to truly put your child first, if you want to prioritize and protect the needs and welfare of your child, what you need to do is you need to provide your child with safety, consistency, and stability. Those are simple things: safety, consistency, and stability. With safety, let your child know, “You are safe.” That's all you have to do. Tell your child, “You are safe. I am here for you.” Let them hear you say those words directly from you that you are going to protect them and you're going to make sure nothing bad happens to them.

If you want to truly put your child first and protect their needs and welfare, you need to provide your child with safety, consistency, and stability.

With consistency, same thing. It is so simple. Provide your child with routines. Kids love feeling in control and knowing what to expect. Stick to that bedtime, the bedtime they had pre-separation, if it was 8:00 or 8:30. If they're getting a little older now, you can say, “You know what, we're going to bump your bedtime up to 9:00 tonight.” If you always eat breakfast together or dinner together, do that. Routines provide that rhythm. They let kids know that there are things they can count on. They can rely on that.

You've got your safety, your consistency, and then finally, stability. Create this nurturing and supportive environment. We all know that. How do you do that? What's that going to look like? You create a home life that's judgment-free. You tell your kids, “You can tell me anything you want. There is no judgment here. I love you. I support you.” No matter what, be available for them. You listen to them, not listen in the background as you're cooking, checking your emails, or responding to text messages. Put your phone down. Stop what you're doing. Sit down at the table. Make eye contact. Listen with your child. Hear what they have to say.

Ask follow-up questions and encourage them to share their feelings, whether they're positive or negative. You want to talk about those thoughts, feelings, what's happening, and what they want to see. Validate those feelings as well. As important as listening and hearing them out is validating them and accepting those feelings. Even if you don't agree with them and it's contrary to what you want and what you thought would happen, validate them. Say, “I hear you. I understand you. Thank you for sharing that with me.” Finally, if you feel like your child needs more support, seek out the very best trauma-informed therapists and providers. Doing all of those things is going to prioritize your children. It's going to put them front and center.

I love that. Safety, consistency, stability. What are a couple of your key don'ts?

These are so obvious. When you're in the process of a divorce or separation, I don't think parents realize this, but don't ever use your child as a messenger. If you have something to say to your co-parent, get on your phone and send a text message. If you're using OurFamilyWizard, which is a co-parenting app that helps you draft your message with the use of artificial intelligence, we have a tone meter that will help you and alert you to your tone.

If you're using any emotionally charged words, it's going to assist you in communicating effectively and positively. Get on there. Don't ever put your kids in the middle. That's the number one don't. Don't dump on your kids. They're not your therapist. They're not your friend. Don't start going on and on about your co-parent, your life, and your financial struggles. That's a big no-no. All that's going to do is terrify your child. It's going to make them so scared of how life is going to change. What's going to happen to my family? Where am I going to live? What's going to happen to the dog, school, friends, and activities? Kids need to know that they are safe.

Again, going back to the safety, “You are going to be okay. You are going to be supported and loved.” If you could focus on the dos, that's way more important, but also know those don'ts. I'm trying to think of some other don'ts because there are a lot of them. I know the messenger and dumping on your kids. I think of more. I will share them as they come to mind.

I think I heard a custody evaluator say this. Whatever you do, don't coach your kids before they get on the phone with a professional like you.

Yes. That's a big do not. Don't coach your kids before they meet with the GAL. If they go in for an in-camera review with the judge, they cannot be coached. From the terminology that they're using, from the way they're trying to recall what was said to them, and being so careful with sharing their thoughts and feelings, we know if a child has been coached. I thought of another don't. Don't ever ask your kids or drill them about their conversations, about their telephone calls, and about their time with your co-parent. That's not appropriate. It's going to make them feel on edge. It's going to be the reason why divorce or separation is an adverse childhood experience because it's going to put them into a fight or flight.

It's going to make them have that feeling like seeing a bear in the woods. That's how I describe it to parents. I say, “When you do these things to your children, it's like they're seeing a bear in the woods. Their heart is pounding. Their blood is rushing. Their pupils are dilated. They are sweating, and they are scared. When you do this over and over again, that's what causes the change in their bodies and in their brains.” I hope parents take this very seriously because the actions that they take during their divorce or separation deeply affect their children immediately and long-term.

Navigating Child's Feelings: Open-Ended Questions Vs. Interrogation

It's so interesting. I'd like to tell you a little story. So often, parents, especially if they feel like the other parent has a short fuse, do want to know, “Are you safe over there?” I think your point is such a good one. I had come up with a game. I always tried to turn things into a game. My kids were 6 and 8 when we first started our divorce. I did this all the time, not just when they were at Dad's. We would sit around the dinner table, and we'd do highlights, lowlights.

What was the highlight of your day? What was the lowlight of your day? They started enjoying it. That way, if they came back from Dad's, it was the same thing. Sometimes, I would find out, I sat and watched TV all weekend, and I felt lonely. I was able to support them without drilling them. I'm curious what your thoughts on a strategy like that are.

I think open-ended questions are innocuous, and children are going to share with you what they want to share. If you're providing them with that safety, consistency, and stability, they're not going to be afraid to tell the truth. It's different asking a very open-ended question versus saying, “Tell me what happened at 3:00 PM on Saturday when you were at the rec center with so-and-so.” It's a different situation. I think, as a GAL, as a professional who works with children, I think open-ended questions are absolutely fine. When children want to share, they're going to share.

I agree with you. The most important thing is that you are a safe person because if the child does have difficulties with the other parent or anybody else, if you're quick to bash, judge, or jump in, then they're not going to tell you. Who do they go to? I love that safety piece. What haven't we covered that you would like to share with our audience before we wrap up, that's important?

I do like to talk about the three C's sometimes. It's something that's easy to remember. It's the three C's of co-parenting. It's communicate, cooperate, and compromise. It's as easy as providing your kids with safety, consistency, and stability. Provide your co-parent with effective communication, cooperation, and flexibility, or the ability to compromise. I like sharing that with parents because it's something they remember. They're like, ”The three C's of co-parenting,” and they get it. When I go out and meet with parents, I usually give them a folder. During the pandemic, I would email the resources to them. Pre-pandemic and post-pandemic, I provide a folder. In that folder, I include Dr. Emery's. He's a professor of psychology. He drafted the Children's Bill of Rights in Divorce.

I give parents that Bill of Rights. I read it with them, I go over it, and I say, “Children have the right not to be asked to choose sides. They have the right not to be told bad things about the other parent. They have the right not to be asked to be a messenger. They have the right not to be asked by one parent to tell the other parent untruths.” It goes on and on. Finally, they have the right to be a kid. This is something powerful that I like to share. The three C's, the Child Placement Bill of Rights, and I'm trying to think if there are any other resources. A lot of times, I'll share the TED Talk by Dr. Nadine Burke Harris.

Children have the right not to be asked to choose sides or be told bad things about the other parent. They have the right not to be a messenger and, finally, the right to be a kid.

That's a different one. I thought you were going to say someone else. What is it, Dr. Nadine?

Dr. Nadine Burke Harris. She is the former Surgeon General of California. She has a TED Talk on ACEs. She goes through all of the research that was conducted back in the late '90s. She goes into the science behind it. It is phenomenal. It's maybe 16 or 17 minutes, but it is worth the time to watch it. She references some well-known, highly regarded medical professionals who participated in the study.

She quotes Dr. Block. He was the former president of the American Academy of Pediatrics. He is the one who opined that ACEs. I want to find the exact quote for you. I have it. It is so powerful. I share this with parents, too. When I tell them to watch the TED Talk, I say, “Wait till she shares the quote from Dr. Block because it's going to make the hairs on your arms stand up.” Dr. Robert Block opined that ACEs are the single greatest unaddressed public health concern facing our nation. Every single parent going through a divorce or separation needs to be aware of this study. They need to see themselves and have self-awareness of the impact that their actions and their words have on their children.

That's a mic drop right there, Elle. We could wrap it up right there. Do you have that TED Talk and Dr. Emery's Bill of Rights? Do you have links that you can send me?

I do. I'll share them with you.

I haven't heard of those two. I've been interviewing a lot of people who do what you do. That's great. I'm going to dive into the two of those right away. This has been so incredibly helpful. You are a doll. You have such passion and such a beautiful heart for children. For our audience, I want to say my divorce was three and a half years. My kids were barely in grade school. I was scared to death for them. I was a sloppy version of myself. I was scared for myself. It makes sense, whatever it is you're going through. What Elle is saying and what I would say is that every day, we wake up and we get to be the best version of ourselves, so keep looking in the mirror.

Keep noticing where you may have slipped and didn't do well, and try and do better because these gorgeous little people that you've brought into the world are priceless, and they didn't sign up for this. I don't want you to have shame, guilt, or dread. Keep trying to do the best you can. With these resources, you've gotten a lot here. Elle, thank you so much for coming on and sharing all of this with us.

Thank you for having me. I appreciate this opportunity.

We'll be back again real soon with another episode of High Conflict Divorce Demystified. Until then, take care.

Important Links

• Elle Barr on LinkedIn
• OurFamilyWizard
• About Adverse Childhood Experiences
• Children's Bill of Rights in Divorce
• Nadine Burke Harris: How Childhood Trauma Affects Health Across A Lifetime | TED Talk
• @Elle.Barr.GAL on Instagram
• @ElleBarrGAL on X
• ACEs Aware
• Book Your FREE Rapid Relief Call
• Soberlink