Divorcing A Narcissist - Essential Legal Guidelines For Navigating A High Conflict Divorce With Randi Karmel

Entering the legal process of any divorce feels frightening and overwhelming. For those entering high conflict divorce, the fear and confusion is escalated due to years of living in a dysfunctional marriage and the complexities involved when divorcing a high conflict personality.

There is often a greater need to be in the court system due to the power imbalance in the relationship, the lack of transparency of one spouse, and the intimidation and bullying that repeatedly derails negotiations. For the high conflict divorce, it can be enormously valuable to take advantage of the court’s ability to control the pace of the legal process, require a net worth statement and other financial documentation and include additional experts to help with custody and spousal support and asset distribution.

Today’s episode is filled with vital information on how to hire the right attorney, what to expect throughout the process, the do’s and don’ts of communicating with your high conflict spouse and the vital importance of setting realistic expectations around custody and finances. Information is power, today’s show will empower you to navigate your divorce with greater clarity and confidence.

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Divorcing A Narcissist - Essential Legal Guidelines For Navigating A High Conflict Divorce With Randi Karmel 

Entering The Legal Process Of A High Conflict Divorce

Welcome back, everyone. This is the third episode in our divorcing a narcissist series, which has been designed to support those of you who have been struggling in high conflict marriages. Our intention through the series is to educate you on the psychological aspects of narcissistic personality traits and the complex legal process involved in obtaining a divorce from them. Our topic is particularly important for those bravely choosing to leave your high conflict marriage.

Entering the legal process of divorce with a pathological narcissist is uniquely difficult. There's the typical pain and uncertainty that all divorce produces. There's the added complexity of paralyzing fear, insecurity, and chaos for those who've been living in a dysfunctional relationship involving gaslighting and other verbal, emotional, or physical abuse. Because you're most likely to be divorcing inside the court system, it's crucial that you understand the legal landscape and court process.

That you set realistic expectations and that the variety of experts available to you. Our episode of the show, essential legal guidelines for navigating a high conflict divorce, is designed to equip you with a basic understanding of the legal process and players, realistic expectations around finances and custody, and helpful tips for communicating with your spouse and parenting together through and beyond the divorce transition. I'm excited to introduce our guest expert, Randi Karmel.

Randi has been a New York City litigator for over 25 years, and she defies the negative stereotype of an uncaring attorney. Randi's keen understanding of the court system, her strategic expertise, and fiery ability to fight for her clients have led her to represent many clients with high conflict spouses. Randi has been acknowledged as a New York Super Lawyer for the past six years and is a certified guardian ad litem. That's an attorney for the children who is often appointed by the court to represent children and is recognized for her expertise with domestic violence and special needs children.

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Welcome, Randi.

Thank you. Thank you for that introduction. Very kind.

Decoding Narcissist Divorce: Finding Harmony Outside (And Inside) Of Litigation

Randi, we have so much to cover, and I'm really excited to have you to share your expertise with our listeners. Let's dive in. The first question I have, is litigation working within the court system a more effective approach for high conflict divorces?

My first knee-jerk reaction, if you will, to that is the last thing you want is to go to court if you could help it. However, you may not have a choice. When you go to court, third parties are now involved in your marriage and in your divorce. That could be very problematic, or it could be extraordinarily beneficial because all of a sudden you're not navigating as much of the day-to-day activities as maybe you're a lawyer or other people. I say but forced, you have no choice but to go to court, and that may be at times where you have to go. It's not always the best place to be, though.

I guess that's why I asked the question. I'm wondering if you could share, based on your experience, either when there is an exception that you don't have to be in court or why so often high conflict divorces end up in the court system and in litigation.

I think the best place to start is with the second part of your question. People wind up in a high conflict divorce in court because there's usually one, sometimes both parties, who there's just no progress will ever be made because they're thinking of things other than the best interest of the children, or spending $500,000 to get something that's worth $5,000. They're not seeing the forest from the trees, or their personality in and of itself is something that is not conducive to settling, or it's not conducive to not fighting, and not wanting to hurt, and not wanting to go for the jugular.

When you're dealing with that mentality and that person hires a lawyer that cannot see through that or control it, for lack of a better word, you have no choice but to wind up in court because nothing that the other spouse is going to do is going to be good enough. Nothing is going to be enough because that person is looking for a fight, or that person is looking for something so outside the realm of what is in the best interest, perhaps of the children, or in this case. There are many people who say, “I'd rather give the money to my lawyer than give it to my spouse.”

That's a horrible thing to say. I've been the recipient of that when I'm that lawyer. I say, “Five years from now, you'll regret it when I'm living in a bigger house than you.” You could win the battle, but you really want to win the war, for lack of a better phrase. You want to show your client that that attitude or that feeling is more destructive for the future, even if they like the fight now, ultimately, it's not going to wind up to be something that is going to benefit the family. Certainly not. The pocketbook. Certainly not.

I want to take a minute here and speak directly to the readers because oftentimes with the clients I work with, it's the high conflict personality that is strongly recommending mediation or collaboration and they're very clear on what they're going to win and what they're going to get and what the other person isn't going to get. If you're reading the description Randi just gave, I think it's really important to be very realistic with how you and your spouse have engaged up until this point and the viability of being transparent and collaborative and flexible, and compromising.

When you go to court, third parties are now involved in your marriage and in your divorce.

If that possibility truly exists, not just your heart's desire, but that you've experienced it with your spouse, I'm hearing Randi say court may not be necessary. However, if your entire experience is that he or she wins, you lose, lack of flexibility, and a lack of transparency, all about the fight. I'm hearing that there may be benefits in court that really align for you. Does that make sense, what I'm saying, Randi?

That is 100 % accurate. There are times and again, I say that you have no choice. I do look at things most people when they go to court when they're the ones that affirmatively say, “I want to file for conference in court or I want the judge to decide a motion,” which is where you're specifically asking the judge for things more immediate than at the very end of the case, everybody thinks that they're correct. I always say, “When you're the one that walks into court first, it's like buying a lotto ticket.”

Most people say, “You never know, or I think I'm going to win.” Most people don't say, “This is money that I'm throwing out.” That's how people think, look at going to court, that they're correct. If you're dealing with a narcissist or you're dealing with somebody who cannot see the forest from the trees or past his or whatever's in his or her head, then that person is going to run to court and want to be in court.

Again, that's another reason why sometimes you are on the other end and have no choice. If you're always, for lack of a better word, the victim, let's say or the person who is being discarded or being trapped, so that the kids, all of a sudden being taken out of the house every day, which was never done before. You're being shoved out of the way when it comes time to make breakfast and lunch, and dinner, and tucking the children into bed.

You may not have that choice. You may be the one that walks into court because now what you're dealing with is unacceptable. It's only going to get worse. It's a little pebble that starts to roll, and then it becomes a big rock and even bigger one. You are the one that says, “I have no choice because this is not going to happen unless a third party, like a judge or a forensic evaluator, starts to analyze what my life is like now, I do have to go to court because this is an impossible situation.”

Unveiling The Hidden Benefits Of Court In High-Conflict Divorces

Let's take a look at the benefits of litigation. You could elaborate on this. I think it's important that our readers understand that litigation doesn't mean going to trial. Litigation means going through the divorce process through the court system. Can you speak to, especially for high conflict, some of the key benefits of being in the court system versus being outside of it?

Yes. I want to stress exactly what you said. This is not TV. People think that going to court, does means I've had many consultations when people said, “We're going to trial.” That is not the case. Very few cases go to trial. Going to court can sometimes be positive when you want things that only a court can give you, such as a decision when both parties can agree. Imagine that all your support was cut off, your credit cards were canceled, and all of a sudden, you cannot find where the car is parked.

Now your spouse, who never had anything to do with the children, is picking them up from school every day. You have no recourse. You're going to want to go to court to say, “This is unacceptable. Judge, I need a support order. I need to know where my children are. I need to have access to the car.” That court would absolutely benefit you. Another way that the court can benefit anybody is if you really are dealing with somebody, let's say with a mental illness, a mental disorder, or a narcissist, or somebody who has some issues that put the children last or you last, and somebody who you cannot really reason with.

If, in fact, there are children, a forensic evaluator could be assigned or appointed by the court, and then there would be a report issued after that forensic evaluator speaks to the parties, speaks to collateral sources. Those are third parties. Sometimes it's doctors. Sometimes it's teachers. Sometimes it's other kinds of therapists, parents, grandparents, aunts, uncles, friends, and then a report is generated, and sometimes this report settles a case.

I would say that most times the report settles the case because the report, if you have a good forensic evaluator, usually gets to the heart of the psychological problems and who has strengths in certain areas and who has weaknesses in certain areas. There are people who want forensics and know that the only way they're going to get it, rather than having the parties agree to do it outside of court, which is extraordinarily rare, is for a judge to appoint. There's an order that everybody has to cooperate. Those are all very beneficial reasons why people go to court.

That's great. I know we have a number of other experts that I'm going to ask you about as well. There are additional experts who can support you in the court system. There's the judge making an order that allows you reasonable flexibility, whether it's financial or custody. The other thing that when I was going through my divorce, my attorney said, “The divorce is only going to move as quickly as the slowest moving person.” One of the things I noticed was that because you're in the system, they're almost like a traffic cop. They move things along. Is that true? Whereas that might not happen as much outside.

That is 100% true. The judges nowadays are under mandates to move things along. It doesn't mean that they're not going to give you a fair shake or get outside of those guidelines if necessary, because they do. Yes, you're on the judge's calendar, not your own. One of the things I also wanted to mention is that sometimes, when there are children involved and an attorney for the child or children is appointed, that person could be a voice for your child.

That is also something that some people absolutely want, which you would never really get outside of court. Going back to what you have just said, yes, you are no longer on your own schedule. You have to abide by the court's schedule. If you ask for too long an adjournment, or you're not ready, or you're not prepared, that's not going to bode well by a court. You may still have to appear and be ordered to.

If you're dealing with a narcissist or somebody who cannot see the forest from the trees, then that person is going to run to court and want to be in court.

When you first go in, and I don't want to spend a lot of time on this, but maybe just a brief landscape. There are certain steps. There's something that someone has to do with their finances, and then the court knows whether or not everyone's provided the right documentation. Can you just speak to those earlier stages, just in terms of the trafficking things and moving them forward?

The first thing is that sometimes we ask outside of court for a sworn statement of net worth, and there are people who turn it over, and then there are other people who will delay and delay. Therefore, you file for a conference, and it's called a preliminary conference, and you file for that because ten days prior to the date of the conference, you have to submit your statement of net worth. When somebody doesn't cooperate, that's a reason to go to court and get what you want.

Your first step is usually to exchange sworn statements of net worth. You set a discovery schedule for when you are going to turn over bank statements and credit card statements, and proof of any separate property credits. All the discovery that are required at that preliminary conference, if there's real estate, the court could appoint an appraiser, the court could appoint a valuator to value a business. The discovery process begins at that very first stage. If you have an emergency, such as you're not being supported or even the other side, your spouse is spending too much and you want to stop it, or custody or decision making, all of these are parental time with the child or children.

If these are issues, then that could be addressed at that very first court appearance and it can also be done by a motion where you're asking the judge to actually make a temporary decision as to parental access, as to decision making, such as if a child needs therapy and the other parent says, absolutely not, I don't believe in it. That's a complex that you want to actually say, “Judge, we need somebody to make that decision now because we cannot. You would do a motion, and that would kick in also at that step.

I'm just really hearing the benefits. It's like if you've got someone whose heels a dug in, who was entrenched, who's inflexible, the court has that power to move things along. If you're listening in, that's a key thing that I wanted you to hear and understand. The other thing before I go into my next question is that throughout this episode, you're going to hear a lot about what happens in court. If you haven't tuned into our previous series, Navigating Your Divorce, there are shows on the finances and the five essentials to prepare, and there are shows on all the different legal approaches.

You can tune in and listen in more detail to virtually every topic we're talking about, divorce in general. In terms of what you just said, Randi, about the forensic evaluator, we're going to have an expert custody evaluator on in a couple of episodes down the road. It'll be all about that and what that person does and how to prepare, and if it's right for you. We're doing more of a general look.

Trust me that we're going to give you all of the details you need in all of these different areas. Let's say someone's decided, “I really should litigate, I should go to court.” Can you just give a couple of suggestions? Now, this is a person who's been in a high conflict divorce. They may have felt bullied, gaslighted, and manipulated, and they may feel less secure and confident than the average person. What are a couple of things they're looking for in their litigating divorce attorney?

Choosing The Right Divorce Lawyer: Beyond The Bullies And Cookie-Cutters

I think that the first thing you want to assess is whether that attorney is listening to you, because you do not want somebody who has a cookie-cutter approach. You don't want somebody whose first thing that comes out of his or her mouth is, “These are the steps and this is what you have to do,” when you haven't really told your entire story of your life yet or of your marriage. You would want somebody who is going to listen to you.

You would want somebody who doesn't necessarily have a cookie-cutter approach, although many facts do go from one case to another. Every individual is an individual, and every marriage is different. You would definitely want to have somebody who can have a strategy. That strategy, also, would like, you should look for somebody who has some flexibility. I would always ask the question, “Let's say we go this way and we do X.”

“What happens if all of a sudden my spouse says, know what, I cannot do this. I don't want to do this anymore. I want to settle. Would strategy change?” You want somebody who is flexible enough to be able to change strategy if necessary, and not have a cookie-cutter approach again. There are lawyers who have the same approach with every single case. That is not what you want, but you want somebody who can litigate in case if it ever gets there.

It also helps with settlement when your spouse knows he or she hired a litigator. We're looking at somebody who, when they say this may in fact go to trial, that actually may happen. It's not an empty threat. You would want somebody with that experience. You would want somebody who could forge a path for you to not experience as much of the drama or the high conflict behavior that you have experienced during the course of the marriage.

I think we may get into this a little later. I'm not quite sure, but you want to disarm that person. You want to say, “Now I have a mouthpiece. I don't have to listen to you anymore. I don't have to accept 30 texts in a minute. I don't have to do this because now I've surrendered a part of that to somebody else that you cannot abuse.”

I love the fact that you made listening the first thing. After years or decades of being in a marriage where you probably weren't feeling heard, knowing that you're working with someone who listens and you feel heard. Also, I would say whoever takes the time to explain things to you so that you really understand them. Randi, one of the things I've noticed with too many of my clients who come from high conflict marriages is they go out and they hire a bully attorney and they end up getting bullied by their bully attorney and by their spouse because they want an attorney who can go toe to toe with their spouse. I'm just wondering if you have any thoughts or comments on this.

You could win the battle, but you really want to win the war—that attitude or feeling is more destructive for the future. It's not going to benefit the family.

I'm smiling because there's an expression that you hire a lawyer like yourself. What you're saying is somebody is hiring a person almost like their spouse, to some extent. That's a nuance in the general rule of you hire somebody like yourself. It does happen. Again, when you're dealing with lawyers, you have to try to figure out what you want your litigation to be and what you want from your lawyer.

We all know the lawyer wants somebody who is listening to them, somebody who cooperates with them, somebody who answers their calls that well. That's vice versa. Obviously, we all want that. That's what you want. There are some litigants or some clients who may want something more from their lawyer. You have to think, “Does that really benefit you?” Yes, many times there are people who hire bullies and the lawyers that they know are going to fight for them in a way that their spouses used to.

There are two points that I'd like to raise. One is when that actually works. There are times where that works because somebody's giving it back the way their client is getting it. It does work at times, but when that's not a strategy and that's merely the personality of the lawyer, then exactly what you said, Karen, exactly what you said, happens. It's so hard to figure out whether it's the strategy or that's the lawyer's personality. Which I go back to that initial consultation, where you have to talk about not having a cookie-cutter approach.

You need to go in with a list of questions, and there are other series that talked about litigation collaboration, the whole bit. Every one of those attorneys made recommendations for things to look for. I just encourage you to put a list together of what you’re looking forward to and the questions you have before you sit down with the attorney. What I like to say is, this is one of your first relationships as you've decided to dissolve your marriage.

You want to make the decision very consciously. You can have an attorney like Randi. Randi is a killer litigator, but she's a soft-hearted individual who can listen. It's not an either/or. You need someone who's they're going to be your partner for months if not years. You want to make sure that the relationship is going to unfold in a healthier way than your marriage did. That's my two cents on that.

Let's talk a little bit, but we have so much to cover here. One of the things you started talking about a little bit is communication. You had mentioned texts and phone calls, and emails. I know that many of my clients divorcing high conflict personalities are are slayed with emails, multi-page emails, emails multiple times a day, texts multiple times a day, filled with the typical blame and accusation, and all of that. What's the rule of thumb for our readers in terms of, let's just stick with communication, what's the rule of thumb?

Taming The Communication Chaos: High-Conflict Divorce Email & Text Tactics

In terms of how people communicate in this state?

How would you recommend your clients communicate?

That's a very different question. I've been doing this for years. I don't believe that people should be subjected to what I call being the nail with somebody else being the hammer and constantly banging them down. That's what emails and text messages can do at any given point during the day, because we put them in, put our emails into our phones, we put them into our iPads that they automatically get downloaded, and people hear that ping or that buzz.

All of a sudden, they know that that may be 15 emails in a 20-second period of time. It's going to be accusatory. I have been telling clients, good or bad, that when it gets that bad, when it's something that is now affecting my client's ability to concentrate, and my client's heart skips that beat and gets nervous and cannot function at times. I worked as a divorce coaches who help clients get through it on a more of an emotional level and how to deal with it.

I've advised people that they need to tell their spouse that they're going to respond in one large email at the end of the week, because it's that back-and-forth that that person likes. I try to cut that out because, as I say, we don't reward bad behavior. I have also told clients that when they get the tirade email, which is a three-page, single-space email that took hours to draft.

The person who is at 7:00 AM. Wakes up to this email, I sometimes tell my clients to do a search for children, the children's names, the words kids, doctors, emergency school. Do all of those things. At the very end, rather than to answer every single allegation, one line, “I hereby deny each and every one of your allegations.” Again, bad behavior doesn't get rewarded. I try not to have my client reward that accusatory email.

I also don't want my client to miss something that's important about a doctor's appointment or something else. I definitely do try to control it. I also work with professionals and like you, Karen, who work with the client on how to handle those types of emails and sometimes how to even respond in a productive way rather than in an I'm cutting you off type of scenario.

Going to court can sometimes be positive when you want things that only a court can give you, such as a decision when both parties can’t agree.

Communication is so important. I know when I was getting divorced, my ex's attorney would constantly pull my son and go, “Please, stop sending her emails like you're like you're putting all of this in writing, stop doing it.” From my perspective, it was exactly what you just described. If you're in that situation, if you're listening and you're in that situation, for me, the word boundaries come up.

It's just another avenue of the same behavior. For you, of course, there's the fear that you don't want to miss anything. Yet if you have to read through abuse to get to the message, coming up with a strategy that works for you that minimizes your exposure while making sure that you're communicating the important things is vital. Randi and I have talked about this before. There are so many different ways you can have it go directly into a folder that you look at at the end of every day or once a week.

There are so many different strategies. If communication is already overwhelming you, that's something that you want to speak to your attorney, your therapist, your divorce coach about, and come up with some strategies for boundaries around it. What other on communication aside from that, dos and don'ts, are there any key things that come to mind for you that couples communicate around?

I see this all the time. People use phrases that are buzzwords, which you wouldn't normally use in a sentence, such as “In an effort to co-parent, I would like to tell you the following.” It just tells the person something, you don't need to preface it. That's like a lawyer saying, “Ethically speaking, I'd like to give you your bill on the day that it was due.” There's no need to actually say that. You don't have to project to anybody what you've done that's good or what you are trying to accomplish. Just get it done.

Just do it because those are triggers for people, words like that are triggers for people. I always go back to, I do a lot of settlements, and I've sat in offices until 3:00 in the morning, 3:30 in the morning, settling cases, you get to see a lot of behavior. A lot of what I see is somebody who cannot let go of the past. It's the parent, maybe, who's actually saying, “Yes, I would agree that we should use this pediatrician. As you know, for the last three years, I've been the one who's always made the appointments.”

There's no need for that. I tell my clients not to do that because those are triggers for the other side, and you're just making that happen. With communication, I definitely believe that you should not use certain buzzwords. You should try very hard not to be accusatory. You should try not to look in the past too much. The best thing you could do is write like you normally write, not like you're gaslighting somebody, not like I always try to give an example. It's the person who texted my client, “You are late picking up our son.”

My client was standing right there, not late at a police precinct. What my client had to do, take a picture of the time at the precinct to show he was not late. These are things that people do in high conflict divorces because everything they do becomes a matter of I'm going to prove it. I'm going to show somebody. I try to have my clients not engage in that, get the proof that he or she needs, and then we'll deal with it with the lawyers. I try to take it out of my clients' hands as much as I can.

There's a fellow named Bill Eddy, and he coined the term BIFF to use the BIFF approach whenever engaging in high conflict communication. BIFF stands for Brief, Informative, Firm, and Friendly. I know someone who switched from friendly to neutral. The point being, rather than writing a dissertation back or pouring fuel on the fire in all the ways Randi just suggested, the shorter the better. It just needs to be brief.

It just needs to speak to the specifics of that topic, that need. Firm. Maybe I think I was thinking maybe we should know, “This is what I want, or this is what I'm doing.” Friendly, just not nasty. I love that I share it with my clients all the time. Randi, there are two key areas that I want to ask about before we talk about some of the other supporting experts, and our time is flying by here. Clearly, divorce is all about the money and the children.

With high conflict divorce, I know there can be situations where there's not a lot of money to fight over, but it could go on and on because of custody. Let's look at custody first. We have shared parenting time, and we have decision-making. You talked earlier about how everyone walks in thinking they're going to win. I've been the primary parent, therefore I'm going to walk away with everything. I just had that conversation with someone the other day, and I was like, “No, it doesn't work that way.” Can you just speak to our readers a little bit about realistic expectations around shared parenting time and decision-making in a high conflict situation?

Custody Battles: Realistic Expectations For Shared Parenting Time

This brings me to where I always talk at a consultation about the realistic points of view and the realistic expectations that people have going into court or in any litigation. Things are not as they used to be. I cannot stress that enough. We are in a trend where you can walk into court and your spouse or the parent, because it doesn't necessarily have to be a spouse, the other parent can get 50% of the time, even though that has never been the case at all.

Now you see a situation where, let's say, the other spouse did not give up a career, did not give up a job, and you are the one who did, and you are the primary caretaker. All of a sudden, you have an attorney for your child who's advocating for 50/50. You have a judge who says, “I don't see why not.” You are now in a situation where the other parent still has his or her career, everything that they built, plus the same amount of time with your child.

How is that fair? That happens often now. The realistic part of the court is that you have no idea of a judge's predisposition. You have no idea if there is a predisposition or if this is a trend. You have no idea how this third party is going to view your actions. If you're going to be seen as somebody who's alienating because you're saying, “No, I don't want that,” two days a week, overnight in the middle of a school week.

The first thing you want to assess is whether that attorney is listening to you, because you do not want somebody who has a cookie-cutter approach.

Rather than you being the parent who's thinking of your child and their best interests, you're being perceived as being an alienator because that is what's happening in some courts, even though that may not be who that person actually is. People are asking for 50/50 for different reasons, support, strategy. Sometimes it's true desire, though, so I cannot discount that. Imagine being introduced to somebody who has just been appointed to represent your child or your children, and that person sits down with your kids.

You don't know what has been said, and all of a sudden, because it's confidential, it's privileged unless that lawyer has authority by your child who has an attorney-client relationship with that lawyer and you're standing in court. You think, “Yes, my kid definitely wants to be with me more.” All of a sudden, a stranger who's now assigned to your case, representing your child or children, says, “No, I'm advocating for 50/50, or I'm advocating for the other parent to have more time.”

Now you have that level, and you don't know what to do. I just briefly want to talk about, you had mentioned guardian at light, and there's a difference between a guardian at light and an attorney for a child. An attorney for a child can do 1 of 2 things. They can advocate straight advocacy, that's exactly what the child wants, whether or not it's in his or her best interests. “I want to live with Mom.”

The kid's thirteen years old. That's what I'm advocating because that's what the role is. Unless it rises to the level of what could be substantial risk of harm. That lawyer can do something that's called best interests and say, “My client wants to live with her mother, but I'm advocating something different.” What power does that lawyer have? Can you imagine to actually do such a thing? When you do go to court, you are giving up control of a lot having to do with the children, as far as decision making, joint legal custody

Joint decision-making is very difficult when you're dealing with a narcissist or somebody who cannot collaborate. There are ways to handle it. You could have a consultation via email. If you don't agree, you can go to a teacher for a recommendation for educational decisions. You could go to a pediatrician for medical decisions. You could go to a parent coordinator. You can go to mediation. You could do many things. Somebody can have the power to have the final say rather than a joint situation, which doesn't always work. In rare cases, somebody could just be the sole decision maker. That's rare as well. That's really what the issues are when you get to court on custody and parental access.

I think that's great that you outline that because a lot of times, just that whole level of gray, it's like how much time and the decision making, and that there is actually a lot of variations that different people settle on. To your point, when you're in court and there's an attorney for the children, no matter what you want, you may not have nearly as much control in the final decision. I think it's so important that our readers understand that there's no justice in divorce court. Divorce court is often not fair.

Wrapping your head around those two things and being able to trust your attorney's guidance and advice will limit your suffering. That's what I want to say. That's a lot of what we talk to our clients about is you have a good attorney, and you trust your attorney. Trust them and know that what they're advising you is based on a lot of experience, and fair and justice just often, unfortunately, come into play.

The Power Of Attorney Trust And Navigating Divorce Court Challenges

If I could just comment, I love that you actually said trust your lawyer. It's hard sometimes to trust when you've been in a bad situation. It's hard sometimes to understand what that lawyer's motivation is. If you have hired a lawyer and, for whatever reason, you're doubting the strategy or how that lawyer is acting, that lawyer works for you. That you cannot lose sight of. You should say something to that lawyer.

As much as I like to think that I'm close with all my clients, I have had those conversations with clients. It's always good when somebody can say, “Look, why did you do X? I thought we spoke about it, but did it come out that way?” You are a team. If you feel that you are not a team in any way, shape, or form, that you need to actually, maybe in your head, may not be. It may be the reality. It may be a misinterpretation, but you should talk to that attorney. Most of the time, it only brings you closer.

Most of the time, it makes the lawyer understand how you're perceiving his or her actions. That will help you to navigate what you need to do when you're speaking with the lawyer and the communication that you have, and the access that you have. I'm just going to say what I have in one of my cases from a long time ago.

My client could not handle emails during the day, even from a lawyer, because it was so high conflict. I devised a little plan because there were times I couldn't wait till after hours, that’s not a plan, but in the subject line, exactly what the issue was, whether I just needed to talk, whether there was an email. That got my client through the day when I was actually emailing. We got along beautifully, but it was just the mere name of the lawyer knowing what could have happened.

Was there a form from the court? Did I get a letter that's going to disrupt my client's life? I had to almost say, “Not an issue. Call me when you can. Not a problem. We just got discovery.” I had to do that for many months before my client was able to accept even emails from me. That's why, had I not known that, every email from me would have caused my client unnecessary aggravation, because most of them were not problematic at all. That's why the relationship is important.

It's so important what you're talking about. You, the person who hired the attorney, you're the boss, you're paying the bill, and you probably aren't so comfortable speaking your mind or doing something that you feel is critical because of this dysfunctional marriage that you're coming out of. All of those uncomfortable things to do are actually baby steps in personal growth as well as is going to benefit your relationship with your attorney. I just want to second everything that Randi said. Randi, before we wrap up, we've talked about some of the experts.

Bad behavior doesn't get rewarded.

You mentioned the forensic or custody evaluator. We've talked about the attorney for the children. I want to talk about finances for a second, because that's obviously so big and can be so overwhelming. What are your tips on negotiating the finances? We have child support, we have spousal support, and we have asset distribution. We can only touch on the surface of this. Again, given the high conflict personality they're dealing with, what are a couple of the key points that you want to make to our readers on the finances?

Navigating Divorce Finances: Strategies For Long-Term Survival

It's very important. You cannot lose sight of the fact that you need to be able to live and survive past the end of your litigation. Long-term is the way you have to think, and your lawyer has to think long-term. That is not always possible when there are limited resources. It's always more expensive to live in 2 homes than 1 or 2 households than 1. The money is not going to be there as often. I do talk to my clients about, let's have a plan as to what we are trying to discover?

Are we going to try to find every single dime that your spouse spent, every single dime in the world, or are we going to be a little bit more realistic and say, what, let's not throw that money out there. Let's do something different. Let's just say, “Step by step, this is what we need now. If we discover something, maybe we'll go to the next step.” I definitely have a plan with my clients as to how much digging we need to do.

Don't forget, you know more than your lawyer does. If there are hidden assets, sometimes as cash or business. That's something that you need to disclose. Also, try to figure out, and I have worked with some cases, certified divorce planners who will let somebody know, your money's going to run out. Most matrimonial lawyers are not certified financial planners at all. We get you what we think is fair under the domestic relations law or the Family Court Act. That does not always account for the rest of your life. It often doesn't.

Working with some professionals, and I don't always, there are times that we don't, but sometimes you need somebody to put together a plan to say, “This money is going to run out. Maybe we can take more here or take less here and try to be creative.” Again, there are cases sometimes where somebody says, “I want to stay in a marital home.” You say, “How has this been paid?” “I work, my spouse works, but I also get money from annuities or distributions.” “That's great. Now that you're buying your spouse out of the house and you're using half of that money or a portion of that money, you're no longer going to get as much in dividends. How do we plan for that?”

That's the experts that we need to talk to and to figure out how to maintain as best as you can a lifestyle and what assets you're willing to give up. A perfect example is the person who has a mortgage and is paid. They're in a beautiful Manhattan apartment. The mortgage is all paid off. The only expenses are the carrying costs, but that person would have to give up a good portion of maybe retirement or some other assets to be able to buy out the other side.

Is it worth all of that for the apartment? Some people say yes, because I could never live in a three-bedroom for this money again. That's a consideration. Some people say, “I'm worried about my retirement.” It depends on what you really worry about because you cannot predict everything in life, what you think you may need in the future to be able to have as best of a lifestyle as you can under the circumstances.

Great advice. Our next show is actually with a divorced financial planner. Tune in because that will be all about two shows down the road, how to protect your finances. I just want to speak to that, especially if you've been a little cloistered from the whole financial picture of your marriage, and you don't know a lot about the bills that are being paid or the assets that are available, it can be very scary. Especially if you have a spouse who's basically telling you that you're not going to get anything and it's all his or her money.

Having a support team is so vital. That divorce financial planner is probably the one person I tell every client, regardless of how much money they have, is to sit down and speak to somebody who does money for a living. It's going to be so incredibly valuable for you in understanding your financial picture. Having someone who's just really schooled in finances to help you look at the numbers and to even speak to your attorney with you or for you. That's a key person that's like an essential person to have on your team.

If I may, I just wanted to add something. For me and my staff to get a feel of what clients go through, one of my associates and I actually filled out statements of network. We did what we ask our clients to do because it's very daunting. No matter what you think, and you think you don't know, it really is daunting for everybody. We went through the process, and I spoke to a financial person and said, “I want to know what I spend on X. Give me that graph.

Give me that pie chart. I want to know where I spend on Y and on Z,” because you think that people are judging you, and they're not, because we see everything. You have to also understand that, yes, you may spend a lot of money on one thing and nothing else. The lawyers aren't judging you. They're trying to help you. I decided to do it myself to know what it felt like when somebody else approached me and said, “This is what you spend on X and this is what you spend on Y.” Remember, we're not judging you. We're trying to get you what you need. You shouldn't be afraid of the process.

Demystifying The Divorce Process: Seeking Clarity And Understanding Every Step

Great advice. As we begin to wrap up, we've just scratched the surface of so much of this, which is why the rest of the year is just this series of speaking to all of the different experts that Randi mentioned. We didn't talk about forensic accounting, which is if your situation is that complex. There are businesses or hidden money, but we're going to have a forensic accountant who comes on and talks about when that would be necessary.

We're going to have the financial planner so that you understand the finances and how to protect them, especially if you're in this high conflict situation. Randi, you mentioned the attorney for the children. Of course, me and my team, we're divorce coaches. We're constantly supporting people going through this to help you get just calm and clear and to be really effective and strategic and a better partner with your attorney so that you can really work toward the best possible settlement. Is there any last tips or advice that you want to leave our readers with, Randi?

You are more in control than you think you are.

I do think that we covered quite a bit, and I know it does seem very daunting and there's so much, but the one thing I would say is that most, I call them living room litigators. Some people come in and they think that they know everything about the process, and some do, and some do not. Please, I always beg my clients. “I could not care less what you're asking me. Just ask me the question. I need you to understand what's happening in court so your head is not spinning.”

I go back to, there was a very old movie with Barbra Streisand, and it was called Nuts. I think it was Richard Dreyfuss was in it. They were all talking around her, and they were using terms like “Give her a 730 exam.” That's a mental health exam. “Give her this.” She did not know what was happening around her. That movie is so old, but it always stuck with me that that's not the lawyer I want. That's not the lawyer I want to be. That's not the relationship. Lawyers have a tendency, and judges have a tendency to speak the language, but you are paying to understand it.

I guess my last comment is don't assume that we think everything or we think nothing. It doesn't matter if you have any questions. You don't want to be that person standing in a courtroom with your head spinning and not understanding what is happening in something that's going to affect your life. No judge cares if you have questions. No judge cares if you want to take a break to ask your lawyer a question. No lawyer cares.

No attorney for children's care, no forensic care. We actually welcome it and we like it because it makes our job easier. That's my last comment. You are more in control than you think you are. All you have to do is have a good relationship with your lawyer, know what's going on, and every step of the way be involved with what is happening on your case every step of the way.

Thank you so much. Randi, how can our listeners reach out and find you if they want to connect?

I'm happy to give you my website is www.RandiKarmel.com. My email address is [email protected]. Same spelling. No spaces. My office phone number is (212) 755-0224.

Perfect. This has been so filled and helpful. I really just thank you for a wonderful, wonderful episode with us.

It is my pleasure and any help that I can offer. Again, my pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Thank you. To our readers, if you've been tuning into our podcast, please take a few minutes and review our Journey Beyond Divorce podcast on iTunes. It's a great way to pay it forward so that someone who's out there searching for good information will find us. Also, make sure to subscribe. We've got a lot of shows coming up, and we'll be live every two weeks. We've got 24 episodes in total.

Make sure to subscribe, and you'll be notified as each one goes live. Our next episode is all about how to protect the kids in a high conflict divorce, and then following that will be how to protect your finances. Tune into those. Me and my team of coaches, we're so committed to supporting you through this difficult and tumultuous time. You can learn more about us and find an abundance of free resources at our website, which is JBDivorceSupport.com. Standing for Journey Beyond Divorce, JBDivorceSupport.com.

We also have an active Facebook Journey Beyond Divorce Community. You can just go on Facebook, look up Journey Beyond Divorce Community, and ask to join, and you'll receive a lot of support and encouragement from our team of coaches as well as other members. If you hang out on YouTube, Instagram, or Twitter, we're there too, sharing a ton of information and advice to encourage you. Tune back in in two weeks, and thanks for tuning in.

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About Randi L. Karmel

From 1991 through 1996, Ms. Randi L. Karmel served as an Assistant District Attorney in Kings County, where she litigated and investigated misdemeanor and felony cases and advanced the Domestic Violence Bureau, Investigations Bureau, Felony Trial Bureau and Major Narcotics Investigations Bureau, among others. She subsequently served as Special Counsel at the New York City Department of Investigation, where she was later promoted to Deputy Inspector General. She entered private practice in 1997, and established Randi L. Karmel, PLLC, in 2006.

Ms. Randi L. Karmel received her law degree from the American University, Washington College of Law and is admitted to practice before the Courts of the State of New York, New Jersey, Maryland and the District of Columbia. She is a member of the Family Law Section of the New York State Bar Association, the Family Law Section of the Brooklyn Bar Association, and the Women’s Bar Associations of New York and Kings Counties, and serves on the Executive Committee of Judges and Lawyers Breast Cancer Alert. She has lectured on matrimonial issues in conjunction with financial programs designed to protect assets and retirement benefits.