
Should You Share Custody Of Your Dog? Making The Right Choice For Your Pet With Karis Nafte, Certified Dog Behaviour Consultant & Accredited Family Mediator
Oct 14, 2025For those of us with furry friends, our pets ARE members of the family and when there is a breakup, how to handle them is complex and filled with an array of emotions.
Today, we’re tackling the issue of pet custody during a breakup or divorce. I speak with Karis Nafte, a certified dog behavior consultant and accredited family mediator, who provides expert guidance on how to navigate this emotional process. We discuss the importance of putting your dog's needs first, common pitfalls to avoid, and the various options available to separating couples, including shared custody arrangements and visitation schedules. Karis also offers practical advice on how to reduce stress for your canine companion during this challenging time.
We explore the common misconceptions surrounding pet custody, discuss how to make informed decisions that prioritize your dog's well-being, and delve into the pros and cons of shared custody arrangements. Karis also provides valuable insights into recognizing signs of stress in your dog and offers practical tips on how to support them through the transition. Whether you're considering divorce, in the midst of separation, or simply curious about pet custody issues, this episode offers essential information and expert advice.
Karis Nafte is the founder and owner of Who Keeps the Dog, Pet Custody Mediation. With 25 years of experience as a dog behavior expert, she's a leading voice in the field of pet custody. Karis is the author of "Who Keeps the Dog: Navigating Pet Custody During Divorce" and has developed the first accredited pet guardianship education course for divorce professionals. Her work has been featured in major media outlets like The Washington Post, The New York Post, and ABC News.
Connect with Karis:
- Website: www.whokeepsthedog.com
- LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/karis-nafte-cdbc-b4b9b81a6
- Instagram: instagram.com/whokeepsthedog
- Buy The Book: amazon.com/Who-Keeps-Dog-Navigating-Custody/dp/1617812927 (The first 3 listeners to reach out to [email protected] will be gifted a FREE copy.)
Journey Beyond Divorce Resources:
- Follow JBD on Instagram: @journey_beyond_divorce
- Book a Free Rapid Relief Call: http://rapidreliefcall.com
A word from our sponsor:
TalkingParents provides a comprehensive platform designed to simplify co-parenting and enhance communication between parents. With secure messaging, a shared calendar, and features for tracking parenting time, TalkingParents ensures that all important details and agreements are documented and accessible.
We’re grateful for TalkingParents' support in simplifying co-parenting and enhancing communication for our listeners. Discover how TalkingParents can bring clarity and organization to your co-parenting journey at www.talkingparents.com/jbd
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Should You Share Custody Of Your Dog? Making The Right Choice For Your Pet With Karis Nafte, Certified Dog Behaviour Consultant & Accredited Family Mediator
We're back talking about, “Should you share custody of your dog or other furry friends, and how to make the right choice for your pet?” So many of my clients have faced the difficult question of, “Who gets the dog?” For those with furry friends, they are our family. When there is a breakup, how to handle them is complex. For the owners, it's filled with quite an array of emotions. With me is Karis Nafte, and we're going to talk about tackling the issue of pet custody.
Karis is a certified dog behavior consultant and accredited family mediator. She's also the founder and owner of Who Keeps the Dog, which is also a book that you could buy on Amazon. With 25 years' experience as a dog behavior expert, she's leading the field in the area of pet custody. We're going to dive right in. Welcome, Karis.
Thank you, Karen. Thank you for having me. I’m very glad to be here.
Before we dive into dogs, pets, custody, and all of that, I like to kick my episodes off by asking my guests a question. The question for you is, what is something that you're most proud of in your life?
From Doggy Daycare Innovator To Pet Custody Expert
That's a great question. I am most proud of following my gut even when the whole world is telling me not to. I have started multiple businesses in my life, very different career paths, but all animal-oriented. For example, I helped open up the first doggy daycare in Portland, Oregon, many years ago. At the time, everybody laughed at us and thought it was a crazy idea until it took off, we were full, and the rest is history.
That's one example of something I'm proud of. My pet custody work is something I am hugely proud of because I realized I needed to be in this space, helping change the world. That's a big statement, but that's how I feel about the work that I'm trying to do because I'm the first dog expert working in this space. I'm not a lawyer, I'm not a legal expert, but I know dogs, I know people, and I know the problems that can happen when those dynamics are not dealt with in the right way. I know how dangerous not having enough information can be. I am so proud of myself that I didn't give up on this.
When I started this many years ago, I would talk to people about what I did, and everybody would laugh. They'd go, “What? That's crazy,” and then they would stop and go, “Wait a minute. Actually, my cousin got a divorce, and they fought over the dog and my neighbor.” Now, my book has come out and my trainings are all over the world. It has worked in that people have seen the relevance of the information that I can teach them about dogs and divorce, and how to handle it.
First of all, thank you so much for that. I love what your first answer was, following your gut. I started podcasting in 2016, and my business consultant at the time had said to me, “Whatever you do, don't waste your time with that.” I was like, “I think I'll skip that piece of advice.” Our show is in the top 1%. We've had some amazing guests like yourself on, and it's been a wonderful way to support the world. I love that answer of yours.
Pets As Family & Pet Custody Disputes: When Breakups Happen
Let's pivot because what's so interesting is I work with people every single day who are trying to figure out child custody. Of course, that's so complex. Do we bring in child development experts if the children are young? How do you interpret what that child is saying or doing with you with the other parent? It's so emotionally triggering and complex. It's like the pets are off to the side.
I have found it's my clients whose children are already emancipated who bring that conversation to the table the most. Either you haven't had children and your pets are your children, or they're now your primary children because your adults are off doing what they're doing. Within that context, you're saying there are things that people need to know when they approach this decision. Let's start there. What could one need to know? I love the dog. You love the dog. Let's split it 50-50, and we're off to the races. Fill in that very large gap for us.
You mean the chasm, but you just opened up this conversation. Let me start by answering that in a couple of ways. You brought up the example of children in custody and how complex that is. The first part of the answer I'd like to give is to help the audience become reminded of the obvious fact, but that people forget, which is that dogs are not children. We love them like children. Trust me, I know. As human beings, the place where our society is at, and the cultural relationship we have with dogs, I know we love them like children.
If we really love them, it means we don't pretend they're something that they're not. We don't imagine them to have needs that they don't have. In the context of divorce, this is relevant when it comes to things like, can one person say goodbye to the dog, and will the dog be okay? It's not a question you would have about a child, unless there's overt abuse or some very unusual situation. The child needs to stay in contact with their parents, but raising a puppy does not make you their parent.
If we really love our dogs, it means we don't pretend they're something that they're not. We don't imagine them to have needs that they don't have.
I would answer that question from almost 30 years of working in dog rescue situations, where I have worked with thousands of dogs who have ended up in new homes, whether they've ended up because their owner got sick and died, they had financial troubles, they moved to a different country, or the dogs were fighting with each other. There are a million reasons why people would need to find a new home for their dog. I have helped those dogs settle into their new home.
I've seen how they are fine. There's always an adjustment period, but when a dog moves and says goodbye to a life they knew and the people that they loved, this does not mean that they cannot emotionally survive with those people. In the context of a dog rescue situation, we don't have the human layer of the divorce, the sense of loss, the sense of fairness, and everything the dog represents to people. When I work with dog rescue situations, let's say someone is rehoming their dog because they realized they bought a dog that was not a good fit for their family. Maybe they bought a dog that needs too much exercise, and everybody works full time. It's not a good fit. This happens all the time.
When that dog gets rehomed, sometimes people will say, “That's fine. I'm going to give the dog to a better home, but I want to visit him and make sure he's okay sometimes.” You can't do that. It's not fair to the dog who will bond with his new family if you pop in and out of his life again, because then he's not going to settle into the new situation he's in. It is infinitely kinder to say goodbye, not visit the dog ever again, and let that dog settle into its new life. That sounds a bit harsh, but it's true from a dog behavior perspective.
It is infinitely kinder to say goodbye, not visit the dog ever again, and let that dog settle into its new life.
The Harsh Truth Of Rehoming: Why Disconnection Is Kinder For Dogs
Hold on, I want to put a pin in that. That's a big statement. I want that to settle into the audience’s mind. I can see where it's best for the dog, too. I know it's good for me, so I can keep making sure that they're okay, but it's got to be best for the dog, too, because they love me so much. What you're saying is that dogs' brains and hearts don't work that way. I love the way you put it. If you love your animal and you want to be kind to the animal, what's best for that dog is a full disconnection so that they can rebond and live the full life that you desire for them to live.
Exactly. That is the biggest gift you can give to a dog. I have done this myself. I have been in positions where I have been divorced twice. I've moved and lived in different countries. I did this with one of my amazing dogs, who was my heart and soul at a time in my life when I trained him and worked with him, and our relationship was amazing. Events happened in my life when I was moving to a different country. I knew I couldn't take him with me. I found the most wonderful home for him with a woman who I knew would take the best care of him.
When I let him go, it was the hardest thing. I cried more than I ever have in my whole life when I let that dog be with his new person. Even when I came back to the area to visit family and to visit friends, I didn't ask to visit him because I knew that would rip his heart out. Dogs remember people. There's no question dogs will remember you, but once you reunite that relationship and then you disappear again, the dog's left wondering, “Is she coming back? Is that her car?” That is far more confusing for them than if the goodbye is a clear one.
I love that you put that in the context of rescue and rehoming. Now, we're dealing with two individuals who both love the dog, and they want to share that animal or animals. Walk us through that. What does one need to consider? What are the complexities that we're not even aware of?
Shared Beds, Shared Custody? Exploring The Emotional Tug-Of-War
I think it's helpful to look first from a human perspective on that specific scenario of sharing the dog. If you are going through a divorce right now, and you're considering sharing your dog or your cat, but let's talk about dogs to keep it simple, the question you have to ask yourself is, “Do you want to stay in touch with your ex for however many years of your dog's life? Do you want to know when they're in a new relationship? Do you want them to know when you're in a new relationship? What if you decide to move across the country? What if you get an opportunity to go somewhere that sharing the dog will affect that in some way? Even not from a practical side, but in terms of your relationship finishing, will you be able to get the closure that you need if you're in constant contact about the dog?”
That's the one question people need to take a real deep breath and ask themselves. A lot of people will say, “It's fine. I'm willing to share the dog. I don't want to take the dog away from my ex. We'll make it work, or we'll work it out.” There is an attempt to be amicable and friendly about it. In that scenario, my suggestion is to do it for a trial period. Try it for say 3 months or maybe 6 months, and then agree whether it's in the framework of a mediation or some structured conversation. It’s not just “Let's meet halfway,” but an honest reassessment of “Is this working for us?” Primarily, how is it working for the dog? It often doesn't work well for the dog.
Unless you have a dog with a lot of anxiety issues, most dogs love adventures. They're like, “Cool, we're going in the car. You're packing a bag. This is so exciting.” That's why we love dogs. They love doing stuff. I love dogs for that. Initially, sharing is usually not a problem. The dog is like, “Cool, I'm going to the car. I'm going to that house. I'm going to pee in a new yard.” After a few weeks or a few months, what people need to be looking out for is a change in the dog's reaction to the transition times, specifically, the dog not wanting to get into the car whether there's a clue, like you pack a certain bag, or maybe it's the way you're acting, like you're feeling sad about it.
The dog knows that. Dogs pick up signals. They pick up rituals, so they usually know when it's transition day. Is your dog not wanting to get into the car? Does it not want to get out of the car when it gets to the other person's house? Does it eat when it gets to the other house? Does it take 2 or 3 days to start eating again when it transitions? Is it becoming a little bit aggressive? A lot of dogs will show their stress. They have a short fuse. They get moody and growly when before, they were easygoing and happy about stuff. Some dogs start getting sleepy because that's a stress response, as they will start sleeping in the closet. These are stories I see myself in. I hear them from my clients all over the place.
With the shared custody scenario, the question has to be asked, “Is it good for the dog, and will it be good for the two people in the long run?” It's very possible that in the beginning, you can't answer that question, honestly, which is why I suggest a trial period, because then you'll get an honest assessment of how it's going. At that point, sometimes hard decisions have to be made because the deeper question you have to ask yourself is if your dog is very unhappy or tolerating living between two houses, is it fair to put them in that position? Are you the owner who would insist that your dog be shared between you if they're not happy?
First of all, I love that you gave us a number of tells, things that someone might excuse away, it's rainy out or whatever, but to bring it to mind to say, “Are they eating? Are they resisting getting in and out of the car? Are their behaviors changing?” I love that you're suggesting a trial because especially with our audience of high-conflict situations, everything is an excuse to judge the other person, setting up the expectation that, “We're going to share the dog for the rest of the dog's life,” as opposed to, “We're going to enter a 3 to 6-month trial. Our ultimate decision is not about my opinion of you or your opinion of me. Let's leave that on the side and let's do what's best for the animal.”
I love that you brought in the piece of, and I say this to my clients all the time, being in a high-conflict custody situation is hard for everybody involved. When it's an animal and not a child, you do have more choices, to your point. You are not harming the animal by doing what's best for the animal, and knowing that if they're dating, “I can't watch the dog for the next three weeks. I'm going to Europe.” “What do you mean you're going to Europe?” You could imagine all the various things that happen.
What a beautiful outline you've given us on that. Now, we get to the point where one of two things happens at the end of the trial. One is that everything's great. Everyone's getting along fine. Nobody's triggered. The other is that either the humans aren't getting along so great, or the dog is showing signs. I guess I want to ask you here, can we go down this little rabbit hole? This is for everyone tuning in, whether you're planning on sharing custody or not, because I think it's important. I know what happens to children when they're living in a conflict-oriented home. Can you share what you know about dogs and their receptors for stress and tension, and how it impacts them? Dogs and cats, in general.
Fight, Flight, Or Freeze? How Divorce Stress Impacts Your Dog
I'll talk primarily about dogs because most of my clients are dogs. What's fascinating about dogs as a species is that they are the most varied species on the planet. Think of the different shapes of dogs. If you think of a Chihuahua, a St. Bernard, a German Shepherd, a Golden Doodle, and everything in between, they come in so many different sizes. They have so many distinct character traits, which we have bred into them, that will affect how they respond to stress, how they respond to situations where they don't necessarily feel safe or don't understand what's happening.
Let's say you adopted a dog from a shelter, and they had a difficult background, or maybe they were starving, and there was a sense of lack in their life, or that the world wasn't a safe place. As a broad statement, I could say that if you have a dog who has experienced abuse in its background, those dogs will tend to employ, we could be saying this about children, whatever strategy was successful for that dog historically to keep themselves safe.
For some dogs, you will see them in situations where people are emotional or volatile. They will be very friendly, they will bring you a toy, or they will lie on their back and be cute. There's an instinct to change the mood by being as sweet and friendly as possible and getting closer to the conflict. As a stereotype, picture a golden retriever. Not all golden retrievers, we could be stereotypical for a minute, but that sweet “let me help you feel better.” Other dogs would go the opposite route, and they would become physically protective of themselves. Those are the dogs that are more likely to growl, snap, and potentially bite or threaten to bite. As opposed to being appeasing, they would become unsettled and dangerous, or you get the dogs who would hide.
You'll get dogs when people are fighting, they'll disappear as far away as possible. They'll try to become small and out of the way. Those are in the moments of conflict, let's say. In general, if a dog is living under an umbrella of a high-conflict house or a lot of emotion from people, there's always a sense of trying to figure out, “Where's the safe place, and who should I be avoiding? Where am I going to be safe? Where am I not going to be safe?” What that means is that those dogs usually spend a lot of their life in a fight-or-flight nervous system, with heightened tension.
Those dogs will struggle to learn. They likely won't be very friendly at the dog park. As I'm saying this, I'm thinking, I know this is exactly what child psychologists say about kids. Here I said dogs are not children, but dogs are mammals. That's the thing. They're social mammals. These things are universal. You will generally see that in dogs who live in that household, they will become uncomfortable when people are loud. Even if they're watching sporting events, I see some dogs run away when it's the Super Bowl because of the shouting. If people are having a few drinks and they get a bit louder, that too can make dogs feel unsettled.
They are very affected by it. For some dogs, which is heartbreaking, their response to stress is that they'll internalize it. They start losing their hair. They don't want to eat. They'll internalize all the stress that they're feeling. It's important as a caveat that these are also signs a dog is not feeling good. That dog can also be sick. If your dog is changing their behavior quite substantially, you've got to take them to the vet because, like all animals, the dog’s instinct is to hide it if they feel sick.
By the time a dog is sick, they're sick. By the time they're showing that they're in pain, they're in serious pain because in the wild, if you're sick, you're probably going to be eaten, or people will hurt you. That's important to go to the vet, but if not, your dog might be responding to your household, sadly.
The Canine Calendar: Optimal Custody Schedules For A Calm Companion
A lot of signs to look for. We go through this trial. Is there anything about the trial itself in terms of how often one's swapping back and forth? You mentioned getting in and out of the car and stuff. There's something called a 2-2-3, which is a very typical custody schedule. It means the kids are constantly at one house or another, two days with me, two days with you, three days with you. Any recommendations on other scheduling issues to keep in mind when it comes to animals?
The fewer handoffs, the better. I recommend, if people are willing to do it, one month on, one month off. That's ideal for a dog.
I would be like, “You want me to go a month without seeing my girl?” You do it because it's what's best for her. I always like to pause and let important messages settle in. Month on, month off, the less transition, the better.
Not everybody is willing to do that. If you're not, then do the longest three weeks, three weeks. I would not ever recommend less than two weeks, two weeks. I have clients who have been even ordered by judges to share the dog 50-50, one week, one week. These poor dogs spend half their life stressed out trying to adjust and settle into the new space. Also, you're seeing your ex every single week. The other thing is that sometimes people want to share their dog because they want to keep tabs on their ex. They want to keep an eye on them, or they want to have this psychological spiderweb in their world and their life. By doing longer visits, you also eliminate that possibility.
Do you want to share the dog if you only give it every other month, as opposed to checking in every few days, which is not fair to a dog? It shouldn't be considered an option unless the dog is moving with the child, which is a different conversation than we're having now. Two weeks, two weeks is the shortest visit I can recommend. I would recommend going for something longer, like one month, one month that minimizes the stress on the animal, rather than doing lots of jumping back and forth.
Beyond The Lawyers: Mediation As A Peaceful Path To Pet Custody
Since you do pet custody mediation, here we are, we tried, and it's a complete fail for whatever reason. I'm sure you could give us twelve different reasons why it would be a complete fail. Now, we're at your doorstep, and we're saying, “I bought him. He's under my name. I love him.” Walk us through what that sounds like in your world and how you support people to come to a decision.
The first step is that they come to me for mediation rather than using lawyers and starting that whole expensive, years-long process.
Why?
Because at least if they go through mediation, there's an attempt to try to resolve it themselves, rather than revving the fight up with who's got the bigger lawyer and who's got the more money to spend. Having the most money to spend on a lawyer does not mean you're the right home for the dog. I start the mediation, getting people to agree in principle that we're here to talk about what is best for the dog. That should be our focus. Can we agree to that? Yes, everybody has their history, what they want, and the relationship itself, but none of that is relevant for the dog.
Speaking Dog: Prioritizing Animal Welfare in Custody Decisions
What is the right situation for the dog? That's the starting point. One of these jokes I make, but it's not really a joke, is that I say, “My client is the dog.” That's actually who I'm there for, more than the people. It's not that. I want people to need to feel at peace with the situation, even if it's not necessarily what they wanted. If we're in this situation where we know that the shared custody is not working, there are a lot of different avenues to find a resolution.
First of all, if people are honest with themselves, there is a person that the dog prefers and a home that's better. I haven't ever been in a situation where everything was even, and the dog is hard to admit that sometimes. This is not a judgment on anybody. It's how dogs are. I've got three dogs in my house, and only one of the dogs thinks I'm the best person. The other one likes my husband. The other one likes my daughter. That's how they are. There is usually one home set up and one person who is, from the dog's perspective, the better person. That being said, if that can be acknowledged in a very respectful, kind way between the people, then there are lots of options.
What some of my clients do is, in exchange for getting custody of the dog, they will pay for a new dog for their ex. Sometimes, that helps. That is sometimes a way to make the situation feel better. Even if people can afford a dog, it's like, “I'm going to gift you this dog.” Sometimes, there's something else of value, a prized possession or something of real sentimental value that can almost be offered. “I know you wanted the silver item,” I’m making something up, but can that be offered as an acknowledgment in exchange that you are letting something go? Sometimes, that is a helpful avenue to explore for people and can help things feel a little bit better. Sometimes, it is not as sweet and friendly as I'm making out.
Sometimes, one person lets a dog go, and they're not happy about it. They don't feel it's fair, but they've made a decision because they don't want to carry on as things are going. Sometimes, that is the way that it goes. It's not an easy path to walk down, but what I can tell people is that once you make the decision, even if you take a breath and you decide, “I'm going to let this dog go,” it's such a relief because you're not in this constant connection and arguing with your ex about the dog. A lot of people tell me they only break up with their ex when they stop fighting over the dog. Fighting over the dog is a whole other passion. You're very passionately involved with this person. It's just the bad kind.
From that point of view, there's relief with it. That being said, one thing that I do with my clients is that in the agreement we write up, we put a caveat that if the person who has the dog can't keep it for any reason, the dog will automatically go back to the ex-person, whether they get sick or any reason at all that they can't have the dog. I had one client who got a new partner who was allergic to dogs, so the dog went back to the ex. Life happens. Sometimes, people have to let dogs go, or if that person should die unexpectedly, God forbid, the dog will go back to that person if there's any reason.
What some of my clients also do rather than sharing the dog is depends on the dynamic between the people, but as much as regularly sharing the dog doesn't work, if people go on vacation, let's say they go to Europe for 2 or 3 weeks and the dog goes back to the ex-person, that can be fine for the dog because it isn't a constant yo-yoing back and forth. For some people, knowing that they'll have the option to look after the dog under those circumstances also softens the blow of having to say goodbye to the dog.
It's helpful to unpack what the dog represents in a way because I think a lot of times, dogs carry the hopes and dreams of the relationship. They carry more than their fair share of our emotions. It's helpful if people can separate the dog itself from its symbolism and what losing it would mean to them on an emotional level, because that has nothing to do with the dog itself.
You've got a bunch of mic drops right here, girlfriend. Can you attach that last statement to a story?
Yes, I can. I'm going to tell you about my clients, and I'm going to not use their real names. Let's call them Bob and Sue, and they had a dog named Rover. These are my real clients, and I've had a few in a similar situation. Bob and Sue got together. The dogs belonged to Sue. They were her dogs when Bob entered into the relationship. We'll say Rover One and Rover Two. Bob and Sue were in this relationship. Sue had the two Rovers before she met Bob. They moved in with each other. It was a very intense, passionate relationship. They wanted to get married. They wanted to have kids. At that time in their life, they were both all in. This was it. They could see a future for themselves. They got married.
Things happened in their personal life, especially around the ability to have children, which they discovered wasn't going to be as easy as they thought due to some medical conditions. In the heartbreak of realizing that human children were not going to be easy, potentially not possible between the two of them, Bob ended up having an affair and ended up being with someone else. Sue found out about this, and they split up. Bob moved in with his new girlfriend, the person he'd had an affair with. He moved in with that person. Sue also moved on with someone else.
By the time I met them, they had both already moved in with other people. The dogs were being moved back and forth. Sue did not want the dogs to be moved back and forth. She wanted them to stay there, but Bob was insisting that he had a right to see the dogs because he'd spent so many years with them. Everything else in their divorce had been finalized, except the dog issue. They could not figure it out. They were both getting lawyers. They were looking into the court system.
Luckily, one of their lawyers suggested getting in touch with me first. In working with the two of them, it was a sore mediation because of everything that had led to this process. In the end, Bob said to Sue, “I know these are your dogs, but I also know that if I let you have them, you're never going to speak to me again. I can't bear the thought of not seeing you anymore.” That was our a-ha moment that led to Sue saying, “Thank you, and you're right. I need to move on with my life. The affair hurt me too much.” The affair had happened right when they found out about their fertility issues, and that was so painful for her.
He felt so guilty about it. The dogs were the way to keep that connection alive between the two of them. Realizing that and verbalizing that to each other was what we needed to get to the place where Sue kept the dogs. They're very happy living with her. Bob got himself a new puppy, which worked out well in the end. It's not like a pen. You can't replace dogs. I realized that, but sometimes for some people, it helps. It makes sense for them to do it, but he hadn't reconciled with his reaction to their troubles and what that had led to. He was hanging onto the dogs, like holding a huge balloon, because I think if he could go back, he would have still been with her.
What Does My Pet Really Mean To Me? Unpacking Emotional Attachments
That's a great story. That's so perfect to explain what you were saying about what we are putting on this animal. What is our pet symbolizing for us that's got us attached? Beautifully described. Thank you so much for that. Can you describe a dog who's struggling with some of the tells that you told in a trial and a back-and-forth? What happens when that dog settles into a single household? Can you share what the impact of that is?
Definitely. Those are such fun stories. I'm trying to pull up a specific dog in my mind.
I'm trying to roam around your mind and your stories.
I have so many stories, Karen. I keep a running tab of these great stories. My best story, a funny story as a behaviorist, which might make a good soundbite. One of the reasons people often need to see me with my dog behaviorist hat is that their dogs are peeing inside. It's gross, but it happens all the time. I went to this man's house. This was many years ago, but I promise it happened. His dog was peeing on the couch. I'm getting all the background of, “Tell me about the dog. When's it happening?” The question I always ask is, “What have you done so far to fix it?” He's like, “I know what to do. I need to show him I'm the alpha, so I also pee on the couch. Just a little bit, to show him who's boss.” I was like, “Oh, no.”
That's hysterical.
He didn't do it in front of me, I must say. Don't worry, but he was very honest. Needless to say, it hadn't worked. Do not pee on your couch. It won't make your dogs stop peeing. It makes it worse. Anyway, we fixed it. It wasn't about that. That was funny. Typically, what happens with when dogs have been in a stressful situation for whatever reason, but a shared custody specifically, they will go through a period before they deeply decompress. You see this also in dogs who come from shelters. There's always a decompression period.
I adopted my new dog from a shelter, so sweet. It's been so nice to re-experience this myself, firsthand watching the couple of weeks dogs need to equalize, even if it's a wonderful space and a loving space. For dogs who have been in a shared custody situation and now are going to be in one stable home, it certainly depends on what their schedule was like before. Was it a weekly handoff? Was it every two weeks, or what was it?
Typically, when it's the time period when they would have traveled, you'll see that dog getting a little bit antsy and wondering if that day is approaching. What I recommend to my clients if they can see their dog wondering and getting antsy about it or something is to, first of all, up their exercise. Depending on the breed of dog, their age, and any health issues, a little bit of exercise usually goes a long way.
Get the energy out.
Put it in a good place. Let's go play ball. I also recommend that they do, if they can, a little unusual exercise. Don't just walk around the block again, but go to a different park or do something to show them we're going somewhere, but we're coming back home. That helps. The other way for dogs to decompress is to chew on stuff. Dogs love chewing, especially dogs with big, strong jaws, because the chewing releases dopamine. You can see when dogs chew, their eyes go half closed, “I’m so happy to be chewing.”
That's the dog with a bone thing. I have such a chewer. My Isabella, Izzy, has that big jaw. She's like in nirvana when she's chewing.
Total bliss. That's also why when dogs go through stressful situations, they often chew up stuff. This is not to get back at you. The dog does not care that you went on a date with a new girlfriend. That's not why they chewed up your shoes, but they will chew on things if they're stressed because it gets rid of the stress. It's something they do. Give them good things to chew on during those transition times. Typically, depending on how old the dog is and how long they've been doing a shared custody thing, you see this very slow change, almost like paint drying, where the spark comes back into their eyes, and they start to become more curious.
When dogs feel safe, they are naturally curious animals, even when they're old. When dogs don't feel safe, their curiosity is more replaced by watchfulness or wariness. Dogs who don't easily sniff on a walk, if they're always looking around rather than using their nose, are generally a little bit more high-strung than the dogs who are more interested in what's on the ground than what they can see in the air.
It's those kinds of things. You'll see their sleep patterns changing. They'll sleep easier. They will dream faster. When they fall asleep, they go to that little doggy dreaming, “Running, I'm chasing a squirrel. Love you.” Those kinds of things. That is what you will see, an easier relaxation, less wariness, and an ease in settling into themselves, into their new life.
I'm loving this conversation. What didn't I ask you that you'd want to make sure the audience knows before we wrap up?
That no matter what you're going through and what your dog is going through, your dog will be okay. Sometimes, it needs time. The biggest gift you can give your dog is not to obsess about them, but to focus on yourself. Don't take your own worry and throw it on. Maybe your dog is fine. Maybe they're not particularly worried about what's happening. Don't throw your worry onto your dog to carry for you. Carry it yourself. It's a long tunnel, but there is light at the end of it somewhere. Try to be big enough to do what's best for them, whatever that might be.
I love that. I'll say this to the audience, too. I typically have three dogs with me. I own one dog. I own a Boxer Rottweiler. We call her Isabella, and her last name is now Boxerotti because it sounds like a nice Italian name, Isabella Boxerotti. She's a chewer. My son has a St. Bernard, and he works in Manhattan. Soma is a six-year-old St. Bernard who's often with me. She does not chew so much. I've been fostering little Mr. Prince, who's an eighteen-month-old blue-nosed pittie, who has a jaw that is so big and strong. It's scary, but he's such a sweetheart. Just a bunch of the things that you said, first of all, so that the audience knows I'm all about furry friends.
I also have two cats, but the Pitbull, when he came to me, his dad was away for a little while. That settling down period, as you were speaking, at first, I had the travel crate out, and he was a lunatic. Within a week or two, he was part of the pack. My Isabella, who's such a Buddha girl, let him know that she was the alpha. That was fascinating for me to see her put her alpha on with another dog. I want to share that. One of the things that I find in everybody that I speak to, I have a dog park, a lot of new people come in, as humans, we put our prefrontal cortex and everything that happens in that part of our brain on our dogs who don't even have that part of the brain.
They're Not Furry Humans! Understanding Dogs On Their Own Terms
I would love to wrap up with this. I think, as humans, we interpret incorrectly, which is why my next thing is going to be about telling us about your book. Can you speak a little bit about assuming their feelings, their thoughts, and their worries with a brain that they don't even have? I then want you to tell us about your book.
The biggest disservice we do to dogs is to assume they're little furry people who don't talk. Dogs experience emotions. This has been proven. They experience emotions, but they don't interpret the world in the way that people do. I'll throw an example out. I take my three dogs to the dog park every day, and I love it. I love dogs. I work with them all the time, but my favorite thing is still to go to the dog park. I often see with clients where there's a puppy. Let's say there's an eight-week-old, adorable Labrador puppy that is too sweet, and everybody loves the puppy.
The biggest disservice we do to dogs is to assume they're little furry people who don't talk.
The puppy goes up to a Chihuahua, and the Chihuahua snaps at the puppy. You can picture this. Everyone goes, “There's that little Chihuahua trying to show everyone how big she is.” That stereotype of “You're trying to be so big. Aren't you?” Let's look at this scenario from the Chihuahua's eyes. Imagine that you had bad hips and a bad knee, and you suddenly encountered a toddler who weighed four times as much as you did. It wanted to pick you up and throw you around like a doll. What would you do with a 13-foot toddler who was about to step on you? You had a hip replacement, let's say, and you were fragile.
You would scream. You would shout. You'd probably throw something at this enormous, unsocial, young human. This is what fascinates me about dogs because of all the different sizes they come in. When you have a young, big puppy and an old, small dog, this is a very impossible situation to put the adult dog in because how can they appropriately and naturally teach the puppy what's polite in the land of dogs. Usually, this happens by a puppy makes a mistake, and the older dog will growl, snap at them, bite their ear, and bite their eyebrow.
That's how puppies learn, and it's okay in the right context. If you have a tiny little dog and an enormous puppy, it doesn't work. You get little dogs who get super stressed living with this ogre of a creature that's trying to play with them all the time. I sometimes will say to my clients, “Get down on the ground. I want you to put your eyes as tall as your dog. What do you see?” “You can't see the horizon like we can. I can't see behind that bush.”
Dogs see things very differently from how we do. The only way a dog can say no is to growl. There are more subtle signals. They can get stiff, they make facial expressions, but we often don't notice them. We humans and puppies certainly don't. Growling and that kind of stuff is not aggression. It's an attempt to avoid aggression. It's an attempt at space. If we can understand that, if we could see the world in that way a little bit more, we could be a lot kinder to the dogs that we love so much.
"Who Keeps The Dog": Your Guide To Pet Custody Peace
Does your book give us more insight into the perspective of the animal? Does it help with that? I think I'm going to order it right away to have it. I have so many dogs in my life, but it does help with that. I think that I find myself doing it, too. Is he upset that I'm going to be gone all day? I leave. She falls asleep on the couch. She's probably going to have some fun until the door opens. She's like, “I missed you so much.” I think we put so much on these little ones.
You can do it with a pinch of salt and laugh at yourself, and then it's fine. My book does go into that. It's a very readable, accessible guidebook for either divorce professionals or people going through a divorce. I break down the examples I was giving about dogs that are stressed. I break those down for real, specific things to look for clues from body language. I also talk about the breed types in the book because certain dogs are much more genetically wired to be protective of their house. German Shepherds, for example, or any of the guarding breeds, naturally want to protect their home.
For them to do shared custody is almost untenable because they don't know which home they're supposed to be at. You have to look at the breed type of your dog. You can't talk about dogs. You have to talk about what kind of dog in order to make an ethical, informed decision. I go through the breeds of dogs and the behaviors to look at. I'd give training tips as well. If you are sharing your dog, these are some ways to make it easier on them. If you're going to do visitations, these are ways to make it easier on the dog.
I have a client I'm going to purchase a copy for as soon as we get off the line, and I'm going to get one for myself so that I can support my clients and certainly keep your number to send them to. This has been so much fun and so informative. I love what you do. I'm so grateful that you agreed to come on and speak with me and our audience.
It's been a joy, Karen. Thank you so much for having me. Let's do it again.
Last question. Tell everyone how they can find you.
The easiest place to find me is on my website, WhoKeepsTheDog.com. I give all my potential clients a free half-hour session to see if we're a good fit. People can reach out to me there. My book is available there or on Amazon.
Who Keeps the Dog? is the name of the book as well?
Yes, it is.
Scoot over to Amazon and grab that book if that's for you. Reach out to Karis if you're in that position. We will be back again real soon with another episode. You take care.
Important Links
- Karis Nafte on LinkedIn
- Who Keeps the Dog Pet Custody Mediation
- Who Keeps the Dog?
- @WhoKeepsTheDog on Instagram
- @Journey_Beyond_Divorce on Instagram
- Book Your FREE Rapid Relief Call
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